Podcast

Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Introduction to Real Estate 2.0

Over the next few episodes, we’re talking all things real estate. Real estate is a huge topic, so for this week’s show, I’m bringing you an overview of real estate in general, so you have some foundational knowledge before we dive deeper into how you can leverage real estate to start building wealth.

When you think about building wealth, you might think of the stock market as the most important piece of the puzzle. However, real estate actually produces returns on a much shorter timeline. Real estate can seem overwhelming, so tune in this week to learn where and how to get started on your own journey.

Tune in this week because I’m breaking down the basics, as well as some of the more complicated but important aspects of understanding real estate. I’m sharing the tax benefits that allow you to grow your money at a fast pace by investing in real estate, the different types of real estate, and how you can invest in real estate as passively or actively as you want.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

5 reasons why real estate is the perfect way for you to start building wealth.
Some common objections I hear around investing in real estate.
How you actually make money in real estate.
My own history of learning about real estate and using it to build wealth.
Why real estate investing gives you more control than investing in the stock market and produces returns faster.
The tax benefits of becoming a real estate investor.
Your options for active versus passive real estate investing, including syndications and crowdfunding.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

Follow me on Instagram
4: Think Beyond Your Clinical Income
6: Introduction to Real Estate Part 1
7: Introduction to Real Estate Part 2
Learn more about Semi Retired MD and enroll in their free video mini-course here.
Check out this guide to understand how women can use real estate to achieve financial independence.
Understand how much money you need to start investing in active real estate with the breakdown in this post.
Peter Kim MD

Read the transcript

Hey everyone. So for the next few episodes we’re going to talk about all things real estate. And so you’re going to hear from two of my really good friends who are really great at, obviously, doing real estate. And so one from the passive side, one from the active side. And we’re also going to talk just a bit about their journeys, how they even got into it, they’re both physicians, just to really hear their thoughts about how to think about money and sort of the money mindset and also from a physician perspective.

So what I thought I would do for today’s episode is actually give you an overview of real estate in case you’re not familiar. And it’s actually a replay of one of my first episodes. We’re into episode almost 160 at this point, and so this is episode, I don’t know, it was like 5, or 6, or 7 or 8, and so it’s been a minute.

And so we’re actually going to combine both episodes in one because basically I’m giving a great and broad overview of real estate in case you’re not familiar and to help you figure out why it might be something that you should do. All right, so here it is. And then next week you’ll hear from Dr. Peter Kim of Passive Income MD.

Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Today we’re going to talk about real estate. Specifically, today it’s going to be high-level. I just want to set the tone and we’re going to explore some more specific topics in later episodes because real estate is such a big topic. I mean, there are whole podcasts, books, and businesses devoted to solely real estate. And this is not a real estate podcast. Why am I even talking about it today? Well, I’ve come to realize that real estate is a great way to build wealth and relatively quickly, so I’d be remiss to not mention it.

Here’s an overview of what I’ll talk about today. I want to talk about why should someone like you should even consider investing in real estate? I want to go over some of the common objections to investing in real estate. And then I’ll talk about the overall benefits. And then I’ll start going into how you actually make money in real estate. I find that this is actually one of the most understood details about real estate investing.

Okay, before I start, I want to talk a bit about my real estate history. Like many of you, I knew that many people invested in real estate and that was a thing. But I just wasn’t personally interested in it and I had some of the common objections that I’ll go into a little bit later. But eventually I decided, “You know what? I need to learn more about this. I need to educate myself. If I could become a physician, I can certainly learn about real estate, right?”

So I started small. I started investing passively through syndications, and you’ll learn what that is in a later episode. And up until recently I was avoiding direct real estate, meaning owning my own property. At the time of this recording, we have purchased our first rental property. It’s definitely a learning curve and there’s lots of stuff happening, but I’m so glad we finally took the leap.

So why should someone like you consider real estate investing? If you recall my earlier episode, Think Beyond Your Clinical Income, I’ll be referencing this episode a lot. You’ll recall that I talked about a table with legs and that the goal is to create as many legs as possible so that your table of wealth is as stable as possible.

What’s great about real estate is there are so many legs within the leg of real estate and you can build this leg relatively quickly versus stock market investing, which just takes a long time and there’s absolutely nothing wrong with it. Also, you can have a lot of control over real estate and I’ll go into why that’s important.

Let’s go over the common objections I hear and that I personally had when it came to investing in real estate. So many of us think it’s so hard and it’s so overwhelming, you don’t even know where to start. And that’s partially because of the breadth of real estate. And so my goal today is to kind of start breaking down these pieces for you.

Also, many of us have heard horror stories about bad tenants, or fixing toilets, or things that could go wrong. And finally it’s a lot of freaking work, right? At least that’s what I think, and maybe that’s what you think too. I want to say that you know much more about real estate investing than you think you do because take a step back. Where do you live right now? Is it a home? Is it an apartment? Is it a condo? Are you renting it or do you own it?

Whether you rent or buy, most of us have experience renting, so we understand at least part of the puzzle, right? Just remember these types of experiences, when combined with focused reading and education and supportive mentors, can make taking the plunge into real estate relatively easy and you can become successful too.

Okay, let’s go over the overall benefits. There are five specific benefits I will go over: speed of growth, control, taxes, familiarity, and tangible assets. So first let’s talk about the speed of growth. I’ve mentioned earlier that you can create wealth relatively quickly through real estate. So what do I mean by relatively quickly? Within a few years. Compare that to stock market investing, which will take decades for compound interest to work.

Second, we have taxes. So a lot of us have what we call retirement accounts and these are sheltered from taxes, right? But at some point you are going to have to pay taxes on it. Whether you pay taxes upfront, like in a Roth IRA, or if you pay taxes later, like a traditional 401k. But there’s no getting around the fact that you’re going to have to pay taxes at some point on these investments. And many of you are thinking, “Well, but yeah, that’s normal. I mean, you’re always going to have to pay taxes.”

This is where real estate investing really, really hits the mark. And this is what I’m really excited to talk to you guys about. When it comes to real estate there are so many tax benefits to real estate investors. In fact, the tax code was written for real estate investors and this is especially true if you achieve something called real estate professional tax status, also called REPS, R-E-P-S. We’ll talk more about that later.

Okay, let’s go over the overall benefits of real estate. We’re going to talk about the speed of growth or speed of wealth with real estate. We’re going to talk about control, taxes, familiarity, and the fact that it’s a tangible asset.

So first, let’s talk about the speed of growth with real estate. And I think this is one of the biggest benefits of real estate because I hear so often from my women physician colleagues that they understand the basics of stock market investing, but that it takes so long, especially when they start plugging in numbers in a compound interest calculator.

And so if you want to reach financial freedom quicker, or at least get flexibility earlier, then you really should consider real estate because you can create freedom relatively quickly. So what does that mean, relatively quickly? You could do this within three to five years. I would say probably five years. That’s way, way less time than waiting decades for the stock market to pay off, right?

Next we have control. This is where some people get a little scared because in some ways, investing in index funds is kind of nice because it’s super hands-off, and it’s even more hands off if you just invest in a target fund. With real estate, it’s a bit more hands on, although there is a range over passive to active. But the more control that you have over real estate, the more benefits you will have and the more wealth you can grow quickly.

Familiarity, remember, most of you guys are already familiar with real estate investing way more than you think because you’ve been a tenant at some point as a renter or you’ve owned a home or maybe you’re living in that home that you own right now. So those experiences actually make up part of the knowledge of being a real estate investor. And the more types of homes, apartments, et cetera, that you’ve lived in, that gives you even more experience than you realize.

Finally, real estate is a tangible asset. You can see the property that you own. It’s real. And this is so different than investing in the stock market where you just see numbers on a screen and a bunch of letters and yeah, you know that you own 0.45 shares of a company. But what does that really mean? You can’t really see it. You definitely can’t touch it. And so for many people, the fact that you can actually see and touch your property can actually make you feel a lot more confident.

So let’s talk about how you actually make money by investing in real estate. And this is where I find a lot of people actually don’t understand how it makes you money. That’s partially because if you’re a homeowner, you only see one side of how real estate can make money, specifically appreciation. And that is one way to make money in real estate. But that’s sort of gambling, right? Because you’re kind of hoping that it will appreciate, and generally it does.

Obviously, every real estate market is different. For example, you know, my fiancé had a condo in Brooklyn, New York City. And so the appreciation in New York city is unreal. He was able to sell his condo at almost 400% more than what he actually paid for.

And that brings me to another topic, leverage. Because he didn’t actually pay the amount when he bought it. He bought it for, it was in the low one hundreds, let’s just say $150,000 for this example. He didn’t have to put in $150,000. He made a down payment of $15,000 and was able to sell it for way, way more. So that’s called leverage. Basically you’re making a down payment, you’re leveraging borrowed money to make more money.

This is kind of an out-there topic or concept because a lot of us think that debt is bad, right? Because in real estate you often take on debt to make money in real estate. And that’s a concept that many of us are not familiar with or we’re not comfortable with because we’ve been conditioned to think that debt is bad. We’ll talk about that in a later episode.

So cash flow is one of the ways you can make money with owning direct real estate. Basically, your tenants pay rent and the rent covers more than your mortgage and other expenses, so you’ve created a small amount of cash flow.

Now, a lot of people understand this concept and when you look at the actual numbers, you might think, “Well, gee, this is only cash flowing $500 a month or a thousand dollars a month. That’s not really going to move the needle for me.” But that’s just one aspect of how you make money in real estate. The real benefit, in my opinion, are the tax benefits.

And there are such numerous tax benefits that I sort of mentioned earlier. And so it’s really the tax benefits combined with all the other things, cash flow, possible appreciation, and leverage, that just grow your money at such a fast pace. Let me give you an example.

So I mentioned before that there’s something called real estate professional tax status. This is where you’re able to write your real estate losses, which are paper losses, meaning they’re not actually real, meaning you’re not losing money, but on paper you are losing money. That’s not making sense. Don’t worry about it now, it’s just something you do on your tax return, okay?

If you’re able to elect this tax status, real estate professional status, you are able to use these paper losses against your active income. What do I mean exactly? That means that if you are working as a physician or you have a business or some other sort of stream of income where you’d generally pay income taxes, right? Which most of us think is normal and that we all should pay taxes.

Well, if you have real estate professional status, you have the possibility of actually paying zero income taxes. Now, some of you might be thinking, “Well, that’s just not right. I mean, I should be paying income taxes.” Here’s the thing, the government will get its money. Instead of paying income taxes, you’re paying taxes through the real estate because when you own real estate, the real estate generates taxes for the government.

Think about it, property taxes. Do you have tenants living there? Property manager. All the things that go along with real estate investing generate taxes for the government. You’re still paying taxes; it’s just offloaded and basically, someone else is paying the taxes for you.

Think about that. You’ve got your cash flow, which is generally tax free anyway because you can write your paper losses against it. You’ve got leverage because you’re generally not paying the whole – Let’s say you bought a $300,000 property, you’re not putting in $300,000 to buy that property. Generally you’re paying a percentage of it, 25 to 30% let’s say, and the rest is loaned from the bank.

And then if you combine this with tax benefits, like real estate professional status, it can really supercharge how you create wealth. We’ll talk more about real estate professional status later because there are lots of nuances and most physicians initially will not qualify. However, it’s still worth it to invest in real estate because later you may qualify.

So I want to close out this overview of real estate episode by talking about the different types of real estate out there. Now, many of us just think of homes because you probably live in a single family home. That’s what we call it in real estate investing. That’s the most common type of real estate that people think of.

Well, let’s talk about all the other ways you can invest in real estate that you can actually own. It starts with just raw land, like you could just buy land that has nothing on it. Land is valuable or you can develop real estate on top of it. We already mentioned single family homes. This is the traditional home that you probably live in now. Then we have multi-family homes, basically it’s duplexes, triplexes, quads, et cetera.

Then we have our super large apartment complexes, which is where I live now. I’m renting right now. We have mobile homes, we have commercial real estate. We have self-storage, there is senior living. Just look around. You’ll start noticing all the different types of real estate that people live in. And those are all available as investments in the future.

You can think of real estate investing in two ways, equity and debt. And by understanding these two ways that you can invest in real estate, you’ll be a much more informed investor. Basically, you either own real estate to varying degrees or you’re lending money so that someone else can own the real estate.

So equity means that you are owning the property, at least to a varying degree, and we’ll talk about that a bit later. This can take on many different forms. For example, in direct ownership you actually own the property and then you rent it out. And this requires, I guess, the most work and you have the most control as well.

Another example is investing in syndications, crowdfunding, or real estate investment trusts, also known as REITs. This is the passive side of real estate investing. And when you do it in this way, you’re basically owning a share of real estate, kind of like how index funds are owning a share of a stock.

When you invest in real estate in this passive way, you basically get profit or grow money from the promised interest return, and then again when the share of the profit is sold. There are many similarities or correlations between real estate and the stock market.

Let’s talk about debt. If you’re familiar with how bonds work, then you can think of debt investing in real estate as something similar to that. This is where you’re lending money to another person or entity so that they can buy real estate. As an investor in debt, you will basically typically receive monthly interest or quarterly interest payments.

Now, these interest rates can actually be quite high, especially compared to bonds. And after a period of time, your capital is then returned. These interest rates can be as high as 10%. So the fact that the interest rate can be high and the fact that they’re relatively simple and relatively secure, because the debt is secured against an actual property, it can make debt investing actually quite powerful.

Now, I just want you to understand that the money you make from investing in real estate debt is often taxed or is taxed as ordinary income. Meaning that you’re going to pay your marginal tax rate on it. Now, you can invest inside of a tax advantage account inside a retirement account. Many of us think that you can only invest in stocks or index funds in retirement accounts, but you actually can invest in real estate, debt funds, syndications, et cetera, inside of a retirement account.

This special type of account is called a self-directed retirement account and they generally come in two flavors. You have self-directed IRAs, or individual retirement accounts, and you have self-directed 401ks. So if you choose to invest in things like real estate debt inside of it, then you’ll shelter your taxes.

Now let’s introduce the spectrum of passive to active real estate. I want you to think of two competing forces here. Passive means it’s relatively passive to you as an investor, which means it’s also the least amount of work on your part, the least amount of time. In return, you get the least amount of benefits and control.

And then on the far end of the spectrum, you have active real estate, which means the most work, the most involvement, the most control, and the most benefits, including amazing, amazing tax benefits that are afforded to real estate professional status.

Direct ownership, when you own the home directly, where you buy a rental property, this is the most active type of real estate investing. And this also comes with the most tax benefits because you really have control over real estate.

Now, for some of you that might scare you because you’re worried that you might make the wrong move or that you’ll make a mistake or you’ll have bad tenants, et cetera. I’m not going to sugar coat it, there are challenges and obstacles you will encounter when investing in direct ownership. But if you’re up to the challenge, you’ll also reap the amazing benefits as well.

I know many of you are interested in what we call passive real estate investing, but you still need to understand some basic terminology and do some education for yourself. The good news is all these terms are the same whether you do passive real estate investing or direct real estate investing. In fact, I’ll say starting with passive is a great way to transition to direct ownership.

Many real estate investors that I know own both passive and active real estate. Even within direct ownership, there are ways that make it easier and sort of more done for you as the investor.

So you may have heard the term turnkey real estate, and I think this means different things depending on who you’re talking to. But turnkey real estate, at least the form that I’m talking about, is where you still own the property, but someone manages a lot of the work for you. You have a little bit less control, it’s more hands-off, but you still own the property.

But if you want to get even more passive then let’s talk about syndications. What is a syndication? You may have heard that word a lot because that word is becoming more popular lately and there’s a reason why, because a law was passed not too long ago where syndications were allowed to “advertise” to the masses. Before that, they weren’t allowed to.

A syndication simply is where investors pool funds together to invest in various real estate projects. Think huge multi-million dollar projects that, on average, a single investor couldn’t do themselves. Many of you have heard about crowdfunding and real estate funds, and these are definitely the most passive types of real estate investing. And, like I said, because they are the most passive, they also have the least tax benefits.

Hopefully, I’ve made real estate a bit more accessible to you and also helped you realize that it’s not as hard as you think. And you’ve got to start somewhere, so why not start now?

This episode is sponsored by Zero to Freedom, the free video mini-course by Semi-Retired MD. Semi-Retired MD are doctors Letizia Alto and Kenji Asakura. They are the physicians who have achieved financial freedom by investing in direct real estate. In this free video series, you will learn what you actually need to know to successfully invest in direct real estate. Go to wealthymommd.com/semiretiredmd to join their free video mini-course.

So let’s talk a bit more about the types of passive real estate investing. Specifically, I’m going to talk about crowdfunding, syndications, and REITs. I think earlier I said my first foray into real estate was through syndications, but it’s actually through REITs and that’s because if you own an index fund, chances are, you also own a REIT because they’re usually folded inside some of the popular index funds, like VTSAX by Vanguard.

This is where a trust purchases property and rents the space, and then the income that’s generated from the rental is returned to the shareholders. So if you are already familiar with how to buy index funds inside of your brokerage account or your retirement account, then while an REIT is very similar and it’s super easy in that sense, you can buy an actual fund of REITs or usually it’s folded in already inside of some of the larger popular index funds. So you can buy these through Vanguard, Fidelity, et cetera.

Now let’s talk about crowdfunding. Many of us are familiar with this concept because we’ve all heard of things like Kickstarter and so you kind of have an idea of how crowdfunding real estate works. Crowdfunding real estate is fairly new, at least in a formal capacity. However, investors have been pooling funds for centuries.

Crowdfunding is popular now because of the new-ish online platforms that have streamlined the crowdfunding process. In this way, you can bypass the parts of active real estate, meaning working with the agents and brokers and contractors, and just go to a crowdfunding real estate website to invest in a variety of real estate projects. You still want to do your due diligence, however, meaning you need to understand the terms and how to read if it’s a good deal or not. And real estate crowdfunding can involve either debt or equity deals.

So let’s talk about syndications. Syndications are somewhat similar to crowdfunding, but they are a little different. The same in that they both require pooling together funds from multiple investors. So basically, you’re pooling money together to purchase a much larger real estate or project that you normally couldn’t invest on your own. Think multi-million dollar deals. Think high-rise apartment buildings, assisted living, self-storage centers, et cetera.

When you pool the money together, the expenses are shared and the risk is split. Oftentimes crowdfunding and syndications are used interchangeably, but they’re not exactly the same thing. I think the best way to think about the differences is that crowdfunding is focused more on obtaining large amounts of investors, hence that’s why it’s an online platform. You rarely talk to anyone high up in the company. You usually talk to a low-level analyst. When I think syndications, I think of sort of a smaller type of shop where it’s focused more on the relationships.

So that concludes our two part series on giving you an overview of real estate.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Negotiating Tips for Women Physicians with Dr. Linda Street

155: Negotiating Tips for Women Physicians with Dr. Linda Street

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To conclude this series of episodes acknowledging Women’s History Month, I have my good friend Dr. Linda Street back on the podcast. She’s a negotiation expert and we all need someone like Linda in our lives to make sure we aren’t leaving money on the table.

Dr. Linda Street is a Maternal-Fetal Medicine Physician in a solo corporate practice. Four years ago, she made a business out of her negotiation skills off the back of her own experiences with negotiating in her work. She believes each negotiation is a different flavor of the same thing, and she’s here to share all of her tips and techniques with us.

Tune in this week to discover why hiring someone to help you work on your negotiation skills is a life-changing decision. We’re discussing the areas of negotiation that present difficulty for women physicians, why it’s no surprise negotiating what you’re worth is tricky, and how to come into negotiations with the mindset of displaying your value and getting the compensation you deserve.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

The resistance I see physicians having around hiring experts to help them.
Why all negotiations are different flavors of the same thing.
How Linda makes the seemingly complex topic of negotiation simple to understand.
Why women physicians particularly get stuck when it comes to negotiation.
How to approach negotiations in a way that allows you to demand your real value as a physician.
The gender pay gap and inequities that exist in medicine.
How to get creative in your negotiations, show your unique value, and get the compensation you deserve.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

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Linda Street: Website | Facebook | LinkedIn
29: Negotiation & Money with Dr. Linda Street
51: The Gender Pay Gap in Medicine with Dr. Linda Street
Facebook: Man Who Has it All

Read the transcript

Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 155. So, this episode concludes my special series celebrating Women’s History Month so that you all know all the things that are in the way of women, all the history, all the thoughts, the socialization, et cetera.

And so today I have my good friend, Dr. Linda Street. She’s been on the podcast before, but it’s been a beat. And so I wanted to have her on today to chat about negotiation. That’s what she does, obviously. And at the end of the episode you’ll hear that she, or rather I asked her to look into what I made as dermatologists in terms of the MGMA data.

And we looked into it after we recorded and basically I was making something like the 10th percentile. People would say, why would you leave being a dermatologist? You make so much money. But I didn’t make a lot for a dermatologist. I still made good money in the scheme of things.

But it always makes me wonder if I was making what I should be making, would I have left? It’s hard to know, right? Because it’s not just the money, it’s would I have been happy doing what I do as a dermatologist versus what I do now. It’s hard to know, right?

But seeing that income differential was definitely eye-opening. And this is why you need someone like Linda or to learn about negotiation. And also why it’s so important to spend time and invest in these skills, because you’ll learn from our conversation, why it’s so important. It’s not just for the money, by the way. And the importance of hiring experts.

Something that I’ve really seen is this unwillingness for, and obviously, I mainly talk to doctors, this unwillingness to pay for expert help. And yet we want our patients to do the same thing. I just see a lot of, well, you can do this yourself, I’m talking about money specifically. Don’t hire a financial advisor when you can do it yourself. And there are people who’d rather hire a financial advisor.

The same argument could be true about, well, you can clean your own house, so why would you pay someone else when you can do it? Yes, I could clean my own house, but I’d rather not. And plus someone else is going to be way better at it than I am.

And so I think in general every person is going to be different and how they feel about this. But I guess what I want to say is you get to decide whether something is worth paying for or not. Don’t let someone else’s opinion decide.

I actually do clean my own place. We live in an apartment, it’s not that big. We go through phases where we have someone come, but I will tell you, I do a better job. So that’s why we haven’t paid someone. But I would love to not do it. And so until I find someone who can do a good job, I’ll probably have to do that.

Actually I’ve been training my five year old, I know this sounds bizarre, but he actually loves cleaning the bathroom. It’s hysterical. He doesn’t do the best job, obviously, but I let him go to town. He loves spraying things. He loves wiping. He loves using the toilet brush, although I have to watch carefully because sometimes things splash. But in any case, I’m going to milk it while I can because at some point he might decide he does not like cleaning anymore.

But anyway, I digress. So I think you’re going to enjoy your conversation with Linda and hopefully really instill in you the importance of hiring someone like Linda, spending time on your negotiation because it is a life changing, life altering conversation that you really do need to be prepared for.

All right, here we go.

Bonnie: All right, Linda, so fun to have you back.

Linda: It’s great to be here. It’s St. Patty’s Day today while we’re recording, so we’re all in green.

Bonnie: Oh yeah, I’m not wearing green. I totally forgot. Actually, speaking of St. Patrick’s Day, for school, Jack is in pre-K, they’re like wear something green. I feel like every month there’s a color he has to wear. Is that like a thing?

Linda: I think so. And our school is a private school, so they make you pay to wear green. So it’s like $2 out of uniform day, wear green. So it’s not just out of uniform, it’s out of uniform, wear this specific thing and bring us money.

Bonnie: Oh my God. Anyway, yeah, I’m like, we don’t have t-shirts in every color of the rainbow.

Linda: You must acquire them. It is parenting 101.

Bonnie: Yeah, he’s got some camo pants, so he’s wearing that today.

Anyway, Linda, introduce yourself for those who don’t know you.

Linda: Yeah, so I’m Linda Street. I am a maternal fetal medicine doc. I am full-time in solo corporate practice. So I work for someone but don’t have a partner until August. 151 days from now, I’m counting. And I really started to get into negotiation as more than just something I was fascinated by. So more as a job and as a business because of my experiences with negotiation and with work.

So I’ve been doing it now, goodness, almost four years. And obviously, things have evolved over time, but it really is the same thing, each negotiation, just with different flavors. It’s always the same kind of common format, there are always techniques that you can use. And I’ve found that the more different situations that present themselves to use the skill set, the simpler it becomes.

It’s one of those things where at first it feels like a very complex topic. And I’m digressing a little bit, but I think this is worth noting. But that’s where I found physicians get stuck. They’re like, oh, that’s hard. That’s complicated. I don’t know how to do that. Nobody’s ever taught me that. And those barriers really are removed if you realize just how simple the process is and how much we actually use it day to day anyway. You are negotiating all the time, you’re just not calling it that.

Bonnie: I’ve heard that before.

Linda: Yeah. It becomes just simpler. It becomes just like, okay, this is just something we do. Great, I’m just going to use it in this setting today.

Bonnie: Yeah, so one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on during this time of the year is I usually do a series of podcasts specifically geared towards Women’s History Month, I guess I should know. But obviously, I do it through the lens of money.

And you and I both know, and I think all women know that we tend to not negotiate, we get paid less. And you coach specifically women physicians, that’s most of my audience. And so I wanted to just bring that to the forefront because I’m just guessing your mission is to help women physicians get paid more.

Linda: Yes, because women with money do great things, as you know.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Linda: And I want women taking care of me. And I think when our compensation more adequately reflects the value we provide, it’s easier to practice. It’s easier to stay in medicine. It’s easier when your job looks like you need it to look instead of like someone selling it to you prepackaged. It is easier to continue in that way.

And really, I mean, selfishly, I want female physicians taking care of me as I get older as I have health issues.

Bonnie: For sure, because we have better outcomes.

Linda: Absolutely. Exactly. And so, selfishly I’m doing it so there are women physicians practicing still so that they can take care of me. And then on more of a global scale really is just that it breaks my brain that it is 2023 and we haven’t figured this out yet. Why is there still inequity? So if I can smash it one person at a time, I feel like it’s my way to just degrade that antiquated patriarchal thinking that keeps us behind on the wage gap.

Bonnie: Yeah, and even when I think about the way doctors are paid, right, not in every system, but for the most part it’s some form of RVU or production based. So it still doesn’t make sense why women are making less in that regard.

Linda: It doesn’t on a forest view, but it’s interesting because that’s a great point to bring up. If you dive in on specifics you can find little gaps and inequities that lead to pay differences even in that setting.

So let’s say you’re both paid on production and there’s a male physician and a female physician. Let’s go emergency room or something where it’s not like you have a clinic schedule that’s built a certain way that pre kind of disposes to what you may or may not earn.

So let’s go into the emergency room. Think about how much staff impacts who gets which cases in a multiple physician group. The female physicians, I remember actually it was Hollis Avery that brought this up and I was like, that’s such a great point. And of course these things are happening in the background, right? But female physicians are more likely to get more pelvic pain complaints, or a miscarriage, or clinical situations that may not be high revenue producing, high RVU production cases.

But take the finesse, the connection, the communication skills that women physicians tend to excel at a little bit better. And so then they’re under earning because they’re not getting the lacerations, the broken arm that you just take care of really quickly and then you’re done, right? They’re getting cases that require more of the listening skills, more of the interaction skills that don’t get compensated as well.

So even in a very, what you would consider parody based environment, because you have a shift, you are paid XYZ per RVU, it should all even out, production can still predispose.

And then recently there was a study that looked at inbox messaging. So inboxes are the bane of everyone’s existence and female physicians get more inbox messages. Those aren’t compensated. So even if you’re paid exactly the same as your male colleague, you’re doing more work for that pay. And that’s a problem too.

Bonnie: I’ve heard that too. I was in Phoenix a few weeks ago giving a talk at the White Coat Investor conference. It was on boundaries and that was actually one of the topics. And it’s all related, right? Women are not great at boundaries, and I think the inbox is one example. We’re too nice in some ways and we just want to respond. And then that means we actually get more messages, ironically, right?

Linda: Right, if you’re not setting that boundary from the get go. And I think beyond just not being good at boundaries, additionally, we have to set more because there’s this preconceived notion of, oh, she’d be happy to answer this question, or, oh, she’s great at this, or whatever. And then that leads to more questions.

I mean, I can actually tell – And I’d love to do, I don’t know if there’s a good way in my clinic to randomize this, but I would love to be blinded to which physician sent me the patient. Because as a sub specialist I’m seeing patients from different obstetricians in the community.

And I’d venture to guess I spend more time on basic obstetric questions outside of the sub specialty reason they’re seeing me, like kind of normal birthing type things in patients who have a male doctor than I do in patients who have a female doctor. And I hear a lot like, oh, I just feel more comfortable asking you this. And it has nothing to do with me being the MFM versus the general OB, it has to do with the fact that I’m female. And that’s non-revenue producing time.

I’ve gotten better at finding solutions to take care of those needs without spending extensive amounts of my time. But it’s something I’ve had to kind of figure out a solution for and implement that wouldn’t have even been an issue at all if not for my gender.

Bonnie: Yeah. Oh my God, I feel like we can talk on and on about these sorts of things. But I think what we just talked about how, yeah, on the surface level it should be the same, but the types of cases – Okay, you might know this answer. So as a dermatologist we do biopsies. I think I read that a biopsy from the vulva reimburses less than a biopsy from a penis, is that true?

Linda: I think it’s like half. I’d have to look because I am not a gynecologist anymore, so it’s been a minute. But if I remember right, because this came up in one of the OB mommy groups, I think the RVU payout is about half for a vulva biopsy.

Bonnie: Isn’t that crazy.

Linda: Is it because it hurts differently? Like no, no.

Bonnie: I actually think it’s way harder to do a penis biopsy than a vulva biopsy, from my experience.

Linda: Fair, I have not done either.

Bonnie: When I say easier, part of it is, and we’re not going to get too technical here, it’s like, well, the skin is very different. And also, I think men’s threshold for pain is a lot less, especially in that area.

Linda: Fair, fair. But yeah, I mean, there are a lot of built in kind of subtle things within the system that make this worse.

And then also, I think, even beyond the money piece, which I know money is one of the things we’re focused on, but just the fit, because one of the big things with money is turnover, right? It costs you money to have to find a new job. It costs you money if you have multiple jobs and you have to take time off in between and there are ramp up periods. And typically your guarantee pay is not the same as your production based pay, et cetera, et cetera.

So jobs to fit women versus jobs to fit men. I don’t know data, I’d have to look into this, I am sure there is some. But especially moving forward now that the workforce is diversifying a little bit and you have different people with different kinds of lives and different social kind of conditioning, there are different needs.

Like putting a woman into a job that was built for a man, can she do it? Absolutely. But it’s like wearing a pair of shoes that doesn’t quite fit right. Like it’s going to rub, you’re going to have pain points, it’s going to be different than if it was built for you.

And it really starts at the beginning of recognizing like, oh, I can choose my job. I can design my job to fit my needs. Instead of I think in medicine, we’re socialized so much that you’re so lucky to have this position. You’re so privileged to be able to have this residency position.

I mean, we just went through the match and that’s a prime example of you should just be so grateful you got a spot. Or you were so lucky to soap into a spot. I don’t know if soap is a verb, but it is today.

So I think that when we come out of that environment for a decade really, so all of medical school, all of residency, and then you go into your attending jobs, it’s really hard to shift your mindset from this is how the job looks, I can take it or leave it, to okay, I’m the talent. I’m providing a necessary, important service for these patients in this organization. And this is how I need that to look to thrive.

And so shifting that mindset from this is the box, I can buy it or not to more like a custom build of like, okay, I’m going to build a job. What do I want it to look like? And then advocating for those things. So even if the money is similar, your longevity is better. Your turnover is less, your ability to function at a good level for you and be happy is higher. And so everything else financial is going to follow that.

Bonnie: Yeah, actually something you said just really reminded me how you were saying how medicine, and if you think about any field, the jobs, the whatever were designed for men.

Linda: Right.

Bonnie: And I know that there’s a lot of outrage, like we have to change things because women are infiltrating the workforce. But do you know that Facebook account, Man Who Has It All?

Linda: I don’t.

Bonnie: Oh my God, so Man Who Has It All is the opposite. That everything was built for women, so it’s a matriarchy, and then the men are infiltrating.

Linda: Can I live in this world?

Bonnie: Yeah, so it’s called Meet Abby and Callum. Abby is a proper doctor. Callum is a male doctor, or gentleman doctor if you prefer. Please note, and there is a picture, oh, you can’t see it either. But it’s a picture of a woman in a t-shirt that says doctor. And then there’s a picture of a guy and it says male doctor. But the woman’s shirt says doctor and the man’s shirt says male doctor.

Please note that the male doctor t-shirt is more expensive than the standard version because we do have to specifically adapt it to fit the non-standard male body. I mean, it’s brilliant, right?

Linda: Right.

Bonnie: It just goes to show.

Linda: How absurd is that? We look at that and we’re like, oh my gosh, this is the most insane thing ever. But that’s the world we live in.

Bonnie: And then the comments on these posts, if you just need shits and giggles. I’m just going to read you guys a few because it’s so funny. I make sure to tell my son that if he works really hard, he can grow up to do anything a girl can do. He can even be a doctor if he wants. This is so inspiring.

Linda: I feel like he needs a shirt that says male doctor, not a nurse.

Bonnie: Probably. And then a lot of the comments are he should smile more, he’ll be taken more seriously. I mean, but it makes you, obviously, you and I, we both know this work. It just shows you how ridiculous it is.

Linda: Right. Don’t be so aggressive, honey. Don’t be a male doctor. Yeah, I mean, it’s insane. And so, yes, I agree with you on principle that it should not be so much effort to change these things. But if we don’t, who will?

Bonnie: For sure, yeah.

Linda: If we don’t change them, who will?

Bonnie: Well that’s exactly why you and I both do what we do.

Linda: Absolutely.

Bonnie: It’s like one woman at a time to rock the boat and be like, no, I’m not taking this.

So since you help women with negotiation, what would you say are the top blocks or things in the way of women asking, because since you’re negotiating it’s obviously about a woman asking to be paid more, more or less, right? So what would you say are the top things in the way that you’ve seen among your clients?

Linda: Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing kind of circles back to where we started today of negotiation is hard. This is something that I don’t have the tools I need to do, which is not true. We all have these tools. We are all female physicians, so everyone who’s in that role has had patient interactions where you’re negotiating.

You have a goal, they have a goal, and you need to make those match in order to make things work out. And that’s all it is. So I think this thought process that this is hard, this is something different and new, that this is something I don’t already have tools in my toolbox for is probably the first barrier.

The other things that I think become really challenging for women with negotiation are feeling like it needs to be a tug of war because that brushes up a lot against that socialization of sugar and spice and being nice and trying to make everyone happy and the people pleasing aspects of things. The idea of potentially disagreeing is very uncomfortable for some folks and for a lot of folks

I think that conflict adversity kind of flares up because there’s this thought that a negotiation is automatically a tug of war. I have to lose if they win, they have to lose if I win. And I think that’s totally inaccurate. I look at negotiation, and if you look at the definition, it’s literally a conversation with the goal of making an agreement. That is the definition of negotiation.

Bonnie: Oh, I love that. It’s such a neutral definition.

Linda: It is, and it’s so simple. And that is the dictionary definition. But we create all this layering drama around it that’s not real, unless we create it. Like it doesn’t have to be real.

So I always look at negotiation as an opportunity to really get the idea of, okay, I am being hired to solve a problem. If they are looking to hire you, they have a problem they need solving. Great. What problem are they trying to solve? They just lost a physician to retirement. They are expanding to a new service line, whatever.

What is it that has led to them deciding to hire? Because when you can answer that question, then you know what they want, you know what their goals are. And these are easy questions to get the answers to. It can actually make you look like a fabulous candidate if you approach your interview with some of these questions in mind. And it helps you later when you go to the negotiation piece to be able to ask for what you need.

So why are they hiring you? What problem are you solving? How are you uniquely positioned to solve that problem, is the next question I like people to think about. Because then you’re saying, okay, they have a problem, I have a solution. How do we make the compensation for me solving this problem make sense for me and make sense for them?

So instead of that back and forth tug of war, like for me to get a bigger piece of the pie, they have to have a smaller piece. How can the value I’m providing enhance their goals and solve their problems uniquely, in a way that makes it a no brainer to give me the compensation and the package and the schedule and whatever else it is that’s important to you that I’m asking for? And that feels so much better.

Because oftentimes, when people are reaching out to me, they have a negotiation, either in the works or very soon to be in the works. We probably don’t have 12 months to dive deeply into why you’re a people pleaser. Is that important to work on? Absolutely. But we don’t have time for that. We have a goal, we have a need that needs to be met, and we usually have a timeframe.

So let’s shift how you’re looking at the goal you need to accomplish in a way that it doesn’t completely break your brain from everything you’ve been trained on, everything you’ve been socialized on. So let’s just look at it as, okay, they have a need, I have a skill set. And I uniquely bring these flavors or these spices to my skill set, and that’s why this is an amazing match. Let’s make it happen. And the way it happens is for the package to make sense for me.

Bonnie: Of course, I’m sure everyone listening is like, oh, that makes so much sense. But when you’re the person having to do it –

Linda: Right, it’s simple. It’s just not easy.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Linda: Very different things. Very different things.

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay. I want to hear some success stories. I’m sure you have a gazillion. Okay, let me just tell you one thing. So I have a client, and she’s probably listening to this, who when she first got offered her DM position I think they had low-balled her at like 125 an hour or something. And she’s a specialist. And it ended up going up to like a little over 300. 300 per hour, Isn’t that insane that they would even offer that low amount? I’m sure you see this all the time.

Linda: Yeah, but somebody will take it. Somebody will take it.

Bonnie: Yes.

Linda: That’s why they offered it. They’ve offered it because they’ve previously gotten the feedback that that can be successful sometimes. Maybe 10% of the time, but that 10% of the time they’re dramatically increasing their profit margins because ultimately, the people you’re negotiating with are often not other physicians, they’re typically the administrators. They’re typically the business people.

And their job is to have the lowest rates of turnover and highest volume, success, whatever, in the context of maximizing profits. And unless you request and push for XYZ profit margin, they’re going to be happy to give you a smaller piece of the pie.

And so your job is to convince them, you can give me all these things and it’s worth your time. Your job is to say I am such a great solution for your problem, that’s your leverage. Your leverage is, I’m such a great solution for your problem, that hiring anyone else will not solve this problem in this way.

And then it makes them want you, as an individual, to be the solution for them badly enough that they’re willing to pay for it. Because think about it, if you’re at a purse store, that’s probably a bad example because I’m not really good on luxury purse brands and things. It’s not my jam.

But say you’re at a store and there’s a target purse, a Coach purse, and then let’s say a Gucci purse, or Louis Vuitton or something big and expensive. If they’re all labeled $250 it is different to you which one you pick. Which one are you going to pick? Probably the Louis Vuitton or Gucci, right? You’re going to pick the designer purse that that’s a dramatic discount.

So don’t be the Gucci purse being sold for $250. You’re a female physician, you have an amazing skill set beyond just your diagnostic ability. It is not just your diagnostic ability that makes you a good clinician. It is your rapport, your ability to communicate, your ability to process multiple pieces of complex information to come up with a simple solution and communicate that to your patient, right?

We all know, there are a million different things that go into why excellent physicians are excellent physicians. And women tend to excel at a lot of those things. So don’t discount yourself and allow for that because if they think you’re a Coach purse, they’re like, okay, this price makes sense. Let’s go for that. If they think you’re a Target purse, they’re going to try to low ball you because they’re like hey, I can get this for way less than this price. Why am I going to pay that?

So you have to convince them why you’re the Gucci purse, why you’re such an amazing solution for them. Because let’s say we double those purse prices. For just the Gucci purse it’s $500 now. If you know that that’s an amazing purse and it’s going to hold up really well, it’s going to match your outfit perfectly, it’s going to be phenomenal for you, you’re happy to pay that.

Whereas you may not be if it’s the Coach purse. You’re like, that’s a rip off. No ma’am, I’m not paying that. So you just have to convince them why you’re such an awesome solution to their concerns, why you’re such a good fit for their environment, that it’s worth investing in you.

And I love the word investment in negotiation, like we can digress into language in a minute if we want to. But I really look at it as it’s not that they’re paying you $300 an hour or $125 an hour. In a permanent job that you’re going for, or even in a temporary job, they’re investing in you so that you can solve their problem.

Bonnie: Yeah, so I was thinking about this so I’m sure everyone else is. Okay, so it makes sense I need to show them my value, that I’m an LV bag and not a Target bag. But then it’s like, well, what do you mean and how? And I know we can’t cover this in the next five or 10 minutes, but can you just give us some examples?

Linda: Yeah. So I mean, I think the quick and dirty of that is knowing what their problem is. And this is where those questions like, why are you hiring? How do you see the organization progressing over the next 12 to 24 months? What values are really a focus right now for your organization, for your practice, for your whatever?

Like getting a feel and asking some questions to understand what they want, what they value, what they’re focusing on, can really help you to focus what you share about yourself into that lens, into that context, right? So you can’t show them that you’re the perfect fit for them if you don’t know what fit they’re looking for.

So I think the first piece is to ask a lot of questions that help you to decide what their needs are and what they value, like what’s important to them. And the next piece is to have pre-thought, because let’s be real, when you’re in the moment there’s a lot of neurochemicals going on, our brain is in a high cortisol situation. Even me, I spend all day talking about this and when I have my own negotiations, I have pre-done a plan because I can’t wing it.

And why would you wing it? We studied like eight weeks in a library cubicle for step one, which I would argue has nothing to do with how you are as a physician at all. I barely passed and I’m doing just fine. And then we go to these negotiations, which dramatically impact your quality of life, how long you stay in a job, how you like the job, how much value you feel they feel you’re providing, like how valued you feel by them. And we wing it.

We just show up and we’re like, oh, well, so and so makes this. So, okay, I’m ready.

Bonnie: Why do you think we do that?

Linda: I think just lack of really giving it the thought process of, okay, if I prepare for this, then I’ll do better. I don’t even think we think about it. I think it is such a foreign concept that it just doesn’t even come into our brain as something we should do.

Bonnie: I know, it just was as you were saying it’s like, because I’m just thinking about myself when I really not negotiated the few jobs that I had in medicine. I think in the back of my mind I knew that it’s probably something I should do. But I think I was like, oh, it seems so hard. And let’s just get the job and it’s fine type of thing.

Linda: And you feel like you don’t know what to do to prepare. Like how do I even prepare for this?

Bonnie: Exactly. And then also, I think in my mind I was like, well, it’s not going to make a big difference anyway. But I’m sure you have stories where, like I just told you, right, it more than doubled.

Linda: Yeah.

Bonnie: And I think it was actually step-wise. I think they offered her higher, then she said okay. And then the next thing she was like, no, I want more. And they gave it to her.

Linda: Yeah. Yeah, because they needed her because what she was able to offer them was really valuable to them. They just weren’t going to play that card on the onset.

Yeah. So I mean, I think the first thing is really knowing how to prepare. And I always tell people because your brain goes into this high cortisol place in these conversations, that is not a place where you’re going to be really creative, able to think outside of the box. You’re not going to be your best self. You’re not going to be able to give the best responses. You’re going to go out the door and be like, “Oh, I should have said that.” Right? That’s when we have those moments.

So when you don’t have that pressure, when you’re not in that neurochemical environment, write down all the things. So okay, why are they hiring? These are the things I need to ask to get that information or this is what I know so far. How do I uniquely solve that problem? Okay, these are the things I can think of that I offer that are really valuable to them.

So, for example, when I did my recent job negotiation a couple of years ago, one of the things I had to offer that was incredibly valuable as a sub specialist was I had already worked with all the referring physicians. I was a known entity, I had great relationships. I already had that foundation built that I could just tap into when I was at a new employer in a new place after my non-compete burning.

And so that was something that you wouldn’t think of as something to sell when you’re trying to get more money. You’re like, okay, so you know people? Whatever. But in the context of them wanting to grow a clinic, me being able to tap into pre-existing resources and relationships, instead of having that lag time of building them was a really valuable asset.

And so I leveraged that. I mentioned it. I said, look, I can walk in, I will talk to all these people ahead of time and let them know I’m coming. And I can walk in and I can make you busy quickly. And that’s valuable to them when their goal is growth, when their goal is building.

And so really just looking at what are their goals, and how do I have something that may not be just my clinical skill set that can solve them ahead of time, is able to tap into those creative things to really push the envelope better on what your packages.

And then I think also pre-anticipating what they may put as far as obstacles in your way. So pre-anticipating what all their no’s will be is kind of what I have people do. So okay, I’m going to ask for these things and they’ll say, well, we can’t do that, because we’ve never done it before. How do I want to respond? They’re going to say, oh, that’s not in the budget. How do I respond? Oh, this is a standard contract. Okay, how do I respond?

Bonnie: That’s a common one, right?

Linda: It is so common. And the reality is, it’s a standard contract and like 50% of the physicians have a one letter addendum to it modifying it in some way, right? Is it really a standard contract? Yes, this piece may be, but there is still wiggle. There are still different ways that that can look.

And so pre-deciding, okay, if they say that, what do I want to say back? Because if they say it in the moment and you’ve not thought about it at all, you’re going to deer in the headlight and say, okay, about 90% of the time.

Bonnie: I wish you could see Linda’s face. Okay.

Linda: I know, I’m making a very like, meh. It’s like a meh face. It’s like in the Emoji Movie, the little like meh kind of emoji. So you’re just making this like, okay, defeated kind of response.

If you’ve thought about it ahead of time, you’re like, I understand that this is not something you’ve typically done before, but this is why I think it’s worth your investment. Or I understand this hasn’t been done this way before, but this is why I think it’s a good idea. Or that’s not in the budget, but how else could we approach this situation to where it would fit the parameters you’re working within, but still provide me with what I need?

For example, if they offer 300k and they say that’s what we have budgeted for a physician to come in. Okay, well, would there be a way to adjust the schedule to be 32 hours instead of 40 patient facing hours, and then I’d be open to that salary? Because the budget is still there for 300,000.

You’re still full-time, technically, at point eight. And you probably can see just as many patients in 32 hours or a very similar amount if you’re not burned out, if you’re not exhausted, if you’re not dragging your feet saying, “Okay, I’m going to go to work today,” as you could in 40 hours when you have all those barriers, right?

Be creative about like, okay, if that’s truly the upper limit of the salary you can provide, how can we modify the schedule to make more sense for me at that number? And it depends. It depends on what you want.

Bonnie: So basically we need an earpiece with you talking.

Linda: No, no, you just need to think about it ahead of time and decide what makes sense for you.

Bonnie: But I bet you could sell that service very well, Linda.

Linda: I mean, I do strategy sessions and we go through this whole process. And I put people on the spot and we make it hard when it’s just me and them and I’m friendly. And we get it all out of the way.

Bonnie: Oh, you do mock interviews or mock negotiations?

Linda: So I call it a strategy session. So we basically kind of pre-plan for all the disastrous things that could happen. And then that way, when it happens you’re like, oh, I have a solution for this, and you just whip it out.

And then the last thing I like for that one situation that you didn’t plan for, there’s always that one, is I call it a get out of jail free card because I was an old Monopoly person. But now that I know there was like the woman’s version of monopoly that was more collaborative and stuff, I’m going to have to rename this. It’s that statement that gets you out of having to answer it directly right now.

Bonnie: Oh, tell me.

Linda: So I call it a get out of jail free card, but it’s basically just kind of a generic situation that says, I appreciate that but I really would like to give it some more thought before I give you a response. When can we circle back to discuss that further? Or I’d really like to get more information about how this job looks before I could commit to that. When can we circle back? When can we talk again?

And really just very politely in a I want to get more information so I can give you a better response kind of way. So it’s not skirting it, it’s not neglecting it. It’s just saying I want to be able to give you an answer that I can commit to. When can we circle back?

Bonnie: Oh, that’s good.

Linda: And it gets you out of having to answer on the spot, which is your gut reaction. Your gut reaction is going to be like oh my God, I have to make a decision. But you’re not in a good headspace to make a decision.

Bonnie: And you don’t have to.

Linda: You don’t have to. There’s no true urgency to you making a decision. This is not the emergency room when somebody is coding and you have to decide do I call it or not? This is not the OR where you have to decide, do I do this or not? This is a conversation in a business arrangement that is not an emergency and you don’t have to respond to all of the things right this second. You can come back, you can talk again.

And taking the time to do that allows you to make sure what you’re signing up for is what fits you, is what you want.

Bonnie: This has been awesome. I’m learning so many things.

So okay, one thing I was thinking about and I want to know what your opinion is, is I remember when I was getting my first contract out of residency, and maybe it’s different whether you’re brand new or further ahead in your attending hood. But I find that a lot of doctors are, and maybe it’s more for women than men, like they don’t want to pay a contract lawyer.

They look at the price and are like, oh, I don’t want to pay that amount. And then I’m also just thinking like, they might not want to work with someone like you to negotiate even though it could 10x whatever, you know, like 10x what they paid you. So why do you think that is? Or have you seen that?

Linda: Yeah, I’ve definitely seen that. And I think of it as you are going into a life-changing, at least for a temporary timeframe, agreement. Why would you not get the people on your team you need to be successful?

So it’s kind of the difference of DIY versus a contractor coming in and doing something for your house. Can you DIY it? Yes. Can you do it well? Yes. But is it probably going to look nicer if somebody professional who already understands how to lay tile has done it for you? And the answer is probably yes.

And in order to DIY it, so let’s say you listen to all this and you’re like, “Yeah, I’m still going to DIY it.” Okay, then it’s going to take a lot longer. You’re buying their expertise to make it faster, to make it easier.

With an attorney you’re buying three years of an education and sub specialty expertise in health care contracts, because hopefully, if you’re spending money on a lawyer, you’re using a healthcare contract attorney, otherwise, you’re wasting your money. So I will say don’t bother with a regular attorney. You need someone who does health care contracts. They are specific, you need someone that that’s what they do.

So, okay, you’re saving two grand now. But you’re probably going to lose money later. So it’s like when you try to tile your bathroom and then halfway through you realize it looks really janky and you have to pay somebody to fix it.

So not only does it cost more now, because they’re fixing instead of just doing it correctly from the get go, but you spent all that time, all that money, all that frustration, and then they’re going to come fix it anyway. That happens sometimes. Or you may have to look at the tile in the bathroom and be like, there’s that one that’s a little bit curved, right?

So I think you’re just saving yourself a lot of trouble, a lot of time, and potentially mistakes that could be really costly by using professionals who know what they’re doing.

Bonnie: I mean, in general, that’s my stance because I know in the finance world, at least from the groups that I’ve been in, they’re all like fire that financial advisor, you can do it yourself. Or don’t hire a CPA, do your own taxes. Which I’m like, you guys are on crack. Why would I do that?

But that’s what I think is interesting is I hear people saying things like that, and maybe they’re sort of saying things like, well, I don’t need it. I’ll review it for you, as if another doctor who is not a lawyer can figure that out for you. I’m sure you see that a lot where other doctors who’ve been through a few jobs think they know how to read a contract.

Linda: Right.

Bonnie: But then we get mad when patients Google things and think they know how to do things, instead of valuing our professional opinion. So I just find it ironic.

Linda: Yeah, no. And I mean, and to the patient Googling, I mean, that’s probably a better example than tile. But with a patient Googling, if it’s a simple horse type case, can they get it right sometimes? Sure. But if it’s a zebra situation, you’re toast. You could miss something big, like there could be big consequences.

And with contracts, say you misread something and make a mistake. I mean, that could be a several hundred thousand dollar mistake. I have had physicians pay six figures to get out of a job. I’ve watched people pay tail insurance, which costs them six figures because they thought that all insurance was the same. And they had a claims made policy, not an occurrence policy, and they didn’t understand what the difference was.

And then all of a sudden a year in they don’t like the job. They’re like, that’s okay, I’ll leave. I’ll start a new one, no problem. The non-compete, most people understand non-competes, so I get that, whatever. And then all of a sudden they’re like, oh, even if I’m practicing and willing to move, I have to pay 100 grand to buy a tail policy. And obviously that’s a little more extreme, but I can think of two obstetricians.

Bonnie: Well, for OB I feel like that’s not extreme.

Linda: Right, I can think of two obstetricians that I’ve worked with that’s a ballpark of what they actually paid. And so those can be very expensive mistakes that you could have corrected on the front end had you thought to even ask about it. Or had you understood the contract in a way that somebody who’s looking for those things is going to.

Insurance is always going to be something that a healthcare contract attorney should be catching. It’s something that I talk to, especially my OBS, but it’s something I talk to people about like, okay, so what kind of insurance do they offer? Okay, claims made. That’s not necessarily a problem, it may be totally fine for you but you need to be prepared to have money set aside in case you need to buy a tail policy in case this is not a good fit, and you want to leave.

You have to plan your exit like a prenup. You talk about prenups, you’re planning your exit before it happens, and you hope it will never happen. But the reality is that it does happen. And if it does, you want that protection.

So it’s like buying insurance by having professionals really review everything carefully ahead of time, so that you don’t find yourself in a situation later.

Bonnie: No, totally, it’s so important because thankfully I’ve always had occurrence or claims plus tail.

Linda: Same, I won’t work for anything else.

Bonnie: That’s like one of the few things I did know.

Linda: Yep. I mean, I refuse as an obstetrician to work for anything other than occurrence. And that’s just a deal breaker for me. It’s just something that is set in stone for me, and that’s okay.

Bonnie: Do you know, because it seems like it’s not that common for OB jobs to offer occurrence.

Linda: So I think it depends on your employer. So it is more common in corporate environments and academic environments than it is in a private practice environment. But even in a private practice, a lot of times the barrier to this, so you’re thinking of obstacles ahead of time, you’re asking for tail insurance. Their obstacle may be that facilitates you being able to leave and I’m going to be on the hook for a big fee. Okay.

So anticipate that. I understand that your concern may be that this would facilitate leaving, and this being a short term arrangement, and you’re losing money over it. But how else could we structure this? So that’s when I think it’s really good to start thinking out of the box. And I usually tell people like, well, how would you feel about a tiered system, to where they pay a certain portion that increases every year you work there?

So from their standpoint, they’re like, okay, at least I’m investing at a lower level if this doesn’t work out quickly and we part ways. Or if I’m having to pay the whole thing, at least there’s been a longer term investment, a longer term gain in return on that investment because they’ve been here for four years, or whatever.

And so there are ways other than yes or no. There’s like all this beautiful land of gray, where you can come up with solutions that might not be the first thing either of you think about, but would be a good fit and comfortable for everyone involved. Versus you being like, well, they don’t want me because they’re not willing to pay tail. And them being like, okay, well, clearly, they just want to come and leave six months later. And so I’m going to get ripped off.

No one’s going to make any progress if those are the two opposing head spaces that you’re in. Versus being able to say like, okay, well, how else could we look at this? And it doesn’t matter what your solution is, it’s opening the door to having conversations around these solutions that really moves the negotiation forward.

Bonnie: I still think if I needed to hire you, I would just want you in my ear. I’m just imagining.

Linda: I feel like that would be very weird. You’d be like, “Hold that thought, I need to listen.”

Bonnie: Just hold on.

Linda: I need to listen to my advisor.

Bonnie: Yeah, I need to go to the bathroom, I’ll be right back.

Linda: It would make for a weird conversation. There would be less focus on what I call listening to connect, which is actually engaging with a human hoping to connect with them. And more focus on the script, per se. So I think it would damage the conversation quality.

Bonnie: Okay.

Linda: It’s not that hard to learn these things and pre-prepare for them. My strategy sessions are 90 minutes. You can spend an hour and a half and get all this down. It’s not that hard.

Bonnie: Oh wow, so that’s like what people usually –

Linda: We do it quick and dirty. I mean, I am, just as a human, somebody who likes to be very efficient and effective. I don’t have a lot of time I’d like to waste. Even if I had a ton of time, I wouldn’t want to waste it. So 90 minutes, that’s it. That’s all it takes to plan effectively for a negotiation to be successful.

And I mean, I think the cost of not being successful is so high that even if you do it on your own, say you decide that you want to do it on your own. That’s okay, but do it. Don’t just neglect to do it.

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay, quick question before we close, does MGMA data, how useful is it?

Linda: So I think it depends. If you have a really good pulse on what you should be paid and what your market pays, I don’t think it’s as good. I think a lot of physicians don’t. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve had somebody say I thought I was well paid until I saw that data and I’m at the 10th percentile. Cool, that hurt.

So I think it is valuable in the fact that it gives some market data. There are other ways to get that data. One is, and I mean, the best is just to talk to people.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Linda: I think the barrier to that is we’ve got this cloak and dagger kind of culture around salaries. And some of it is bred by these confidentiality clauses that I’m kind of like, yeah, whatever it’s there, whatever.

Bonnie: I heard it’s illegal to not let people talk about it.

Linda: It depends, I think, on the state. I think it’s a state level thing.

Bonnie: I asked everybody at my job.

Linda: Either way, they’re ridiculously difficult to sue over. It’s a hard clause to really go after someone for. So I think it’s a fairly safe thing. And you get to choose what you’re comfortable with and what state you live in and whatever, I’m not a lawyer. But I think asking other people is a great way to find out information, people you trust. People who have no skin in the game are obviously awesome. But even your future partners.

And one way to, like if you’re coming in as a new partner, one way to ask that question without having to specifically ask what people are making, if that’s a hurdle for you, is to say, how long did it take this person to come off guarantee? Because sometimes they came off really early because they were bonusing. What is a typical bonus in this practice? What would that look like?

So if you can pick a piece of the package, sometimes people are a lot more willing to be open on it. And I like to ask what is a typical bonus? What’s the range of bonus between partners? Because you can do some basic math and figure out the basics. If you know the variable piece, which would be like the bonusing or whatever, then that actually gives you enough information to piece together about what ballpark people are in.

So I think talking to people is a way to bypass meeting MGMA data. A lot of people don’t feel comfortable with that. And so the MGMA data provides kind of a place to jump off from in that setting.

I think the other advantage to the standardized data is that you can bring it to your employer. So most of the employers are familiar with it as well. So you can say like, look, I’ve looked at this data and the salary you’re offering is at the 25th percentile. How do we make this work?

Bonnie: That question I know from negotiations. Yeah, how do we make this work?

Linda: Yeah, how do we make it work? I am offering a tremendous amount of value. I’m happy to invest in your organization. And I’d like to come work for you. But how can I do that for the 25th percentile? That just doesn’t make sense.

Bonnie: Quick question because I don’t know MGMA data. Is it stratified by location? Because obviously people in California get paid differently.

Linda: The bigger the specialty, the more specific you can get on locations. You can’t get city based location, you can get state based on some of the bigger specialties. Some like super sub specialized things, you’re looking more at regional data. Most of the time you can get regional data, there are very few like very, very, very sub specialized, sub specialized things that is national data.

But for the most part, most of the things you matched into out of medical school, you can at minimum get regional data. And anything that’s so sub specialized otherwise, there’s a little less. We can get kind of an idea by a less sub specialized thing about regional variation. But yeah, there is a huge difference in geographic arbitrage in how physicians are paid.

Bonnie: I want you to tell me what it is for derm because I’m pretty sure I was one of the lowest paid.

Linda: I’d have to pull it up. It would take me like 10 minutes, but we will do that.

Bonnie: Because everyone says like, oh, you’re a dermatologist and you left? But it makes so much money. I made a great income. But I’m pretty sure I made on the lower end.

Linda: Yes, we will use Bonnie as a case study after this and can include it as a side note.

Bonnie: Yeah, I can add it on as like an outro.

Linda: Yes.

Bonnie: Yeah, so I was getting paid at the 10th percentile of dermatology. Maybe I would have stayed if I was making more, I don’t know.

Linda: Yeah, I would not say yes at your salary. But there is some geographic arbitrage. And I think that what’s fascinating to me, and kind of sad, is the higher cost of living places are often associated with lower physician salaries.

Bonnie: It does not make sense. Is it because they just assume people want to live there so they can pay you less?

Linda: 100%. It’s because they’ve gotten away with it. I mean, some of it, if you look at the governmental payers, there is an adjustment to how much things are reimbursed based on geography to a certain degree. But for private insurance and things, it’s completely because they can.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Linda: It’s because they’ve been allowed to get away with it, and so they do.

Bonnie: Well, that could be a whole other podcast.

Linda: It is. It is, we could go on.

Bonnie: Well, I think this has been super insightful. I think people listening, if you’re listening and you have a negotiation coming up, work with Linda, hire a professional. Your wallet and your life will be better off because it’s like I think people think of it as like, sure there’s the money piece but then also because one thing I learned from you is like, okay, you want to make a certain amount of money. But then you also want the other aspects of the job to fit in, right?

Because some job might offer you 30% more but it’s going to require you to work nights and weekends. That’s probably not what you want. And so I think of it as like, yeah, it’s like a money issue and, obviously, the less money you make that compounds over time if we’re just thinking of even simple compound interest. And then there’s your life quality that can suffer dramatically as well.

Linda: Yeah, and, and even a lower paying job with a higher quality of life long-term may not make you that much less money if you stay in it. Versus if you have all the ramp down, startup expenses of leaving a job, starting over.

Kind of like a divorce. A divorce is going to have a financial impact on you. Divorcing your job is going to have a financial impact on you. So a slightly lower paying job with longer longevity, with the ability to stay in it, is maybe actually from a financial standpoint, a better choice than a really high paying one for a couple of years, you burn out and are crispy and need a year to recover before you take a different job.

So I think you have to look at the whole picture. It’s not just direct money that impacts your long-term wealth and your long-term financial wealth.

Bonnie: Yeah, because I’m all about the money, but if you’re unhappy and crispy, it’s not worth it.

Linda: Right, you don’t get to go die and bring gold with you. I mean, you can but what good is it for you? So making sure that it’s a good fit, I think, financially is smart too. But also as a human, yes it’s a career, yes it’s a calling, but at the end of the day it’s a job. It’s something you’re doing to make an income for you and your family or just you and it has to make sense.

Bonnie: Yes. Okay. Okay, everyone, hire Linda.

Linda: Come hang out, we’ll have fun.

Bonnie: We’ll link your website. What’s your website?

Linda: It’s simplystreet md.com. So it’s nice and easy, street is S-T-R-E-E-T, just like you live on one. That is part of why I married him.

Bonnie: The easy last name.

Linda: Easy last name, it was priceless.

Bonnie: I’ll be sure to tell him that when I meet him.

Linda: You can.

Bonnie: Well, thanks for being here, Linda, as always.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Understanding the Patriarchy and Money with Kara Loewentheil

154: Understanding the Patriarchy and Money with Kara Loewentheil

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Continuing with the theme of the history of women and money, I’m super excited to bring you an episode with my coach, Kara Loewentheil. Kara has taught me extensively about the patriarchy and our socialization as women, so I’m bringing her on because she articulates these things amazingly. I’ve also received business coaching from Kara and she’s helped me unwind some profound money mindset drama.

Kara Loewentheil is a Master Certified Life Coach, host of The UnF*ck Your Brain Podcast, and former lawyer who helps women identify the ways their socialization has impacted their brain, teaching us to change our thoughts so we can liberate ourselves from the inside and go on to change the world.

Tune in this week to discover how the patriarchy has impacted your socialization and education around money. Kara and I are diving into the history of our society and the layers of societal messaging we receive about our money and how we should use it, and how to use this information to get clear on how you can navigate living in a society with structural inequality.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

How women have historically always received different financial advice than men.
Kara’s succinct description of the patriarchy, how it affects us, and why we should care about it.
How to tell yourself a more positive story about you and your money.
Kara’s money mindset journey and how it compares to the money mindsets of previous generations.
The extraordinary shame many women face around totally normal areas of business, like making less money than the previous year.
How the patriarchy is directly affecting women physicians.
What you can do to use coaching to navigate living in a society that has structural inequality and injustice.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

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Kara Loewentheil: Website | Instagram | Twitter | Podcast
Advanced Certification in Feminist Coaching
The Life Coach School
Tori Dunlap

Read the transcript

Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 154. So in continuing with the theme of the history of women in money, I am super excited about this podcast episode where you’re going to meet one of my coaches, Kara Loewentheil. When I say coaches, I mean like she has coached me.

So I have been coached by her in two ways. Number one is she has this advanced certification for coaches who are certified by where I certified, The Life Coach School, called the Advanced Certification in Feminist Coaching. And there I learned so, so much about how the way women are socialized and how this affects everything.

Now, obviously, I focus mainly on money, but it just percolates everywhere. And we all know that we don’t live our lives in compartments. So the way we’re socialized about money spills into how we’re socialized as a mom, and all the things, the way we work, et cetera. And so I learned a lot about the patriarchy from her. And I wanted her on to kind of talk about it because she says it just a lot better than I do.

And then I actually worked with her where she was my business coach last year. And it really helped me immensely because I was really working through some money mindset drama that I had with regard to my business. And she really helped me unwind that. And it took over a year to do that. Like I worked with her for a year and then I had that drama before I worked with her. So I was dealing with it then.

But working with her has truly helped me think about my money, personally and business, in a totally different way. Like basically looking at it from a more neutral way and that I can always tell myself a different story about it versus telling myself the worst and most sad story about it that makes me feel terrible.

So I’m super excited for you to meet her. And let’s get going.

Bonnie: Hey, Kara, welcome to the show.

Kara: I’m delighted to be here. Thanks for having me.

Bonnie: So why don’t you introduce yourself since I don’t think most of my listeners know who you are.

Kara: Rude. I think some of them might. I’m Kara Loewentheil, I’m the host of the Unfuck Your Brain podcast, the most obvious way some of you might have heard of me. I am a former reproductive rights lawyer and women’s rights activist and think tank director who became a life coach, as one does.

And I help women identify the ways that socialization has impacted their brain and teach them how to change their thoughts so that they can really liberate themselves from the inside out and go on to change the world as well. And I have a book coming out next year, but I don’t have the title for it yet. So sort of like blank and bio.

Bonnie: Well, I definitely want to have you back on when your book comes out. I’m super excited about it.

Kara: Thank you.

Bonnie: Okay, so one of the things that I really learned from you is how women are socialized differently. I think all women know that, but I feel like you kind of gave it language and some background. And it’s, obviously, really helped me with my money coaching because it’s like money is already messed up for a lot of people. Then you layer on the socialization that women have and it’s just different for us, right?

And what I have found is, and I’m sure you have found, that most of the money information advice is kind of, I don’t want to say generic, but I guess it was kind of written for a man originally.

Kara: Yeah, it’s definitely gendered. I mean, we can hop right in, but the money advice that’s given to men and women is different. And there’s been studies showing this. This is not just my kind of soapbox. The advice that’s written for women, like in women’s publications, or that’s aimed at women is all about saving. It’s like, how to budget, how to be thrifty, how to make like five meals for $5. And there are people who need to make five meals for $5, and obviously that info should be out there.

But the assumption with women is that – There’s two assumptions, I think going on. One is that you can’t get any more money than you have. It’s sort of this leftover of like, well, your husband gives the housewife the allowance in her little bag she wears on her belt. And that’s what she’s got to spend all week and that’s all there is. So it’s like conserve whatever resource you have. Women aren’t given the advice to create more.

But also there’s this underlying premise, I think, that whatever decisions women have been making with their money are bad, right? Like there’s just this default assumption, like I actually just did a podcast with Tori Dunlap a financial feminist for my podcast earlier this week. And she was saying, she used this great example, she was like, if a guy posts on Instagram a photo of his new Rolex, people are like, “Cool, bro, you must be doing well for yourself. Nice watch.” Right?

But if a woman posts a picture of an expensive bag, the comments are going to be very different, right? It’s like that’s so frivolous. Why do you care about that? You should have given the money away. You should have spent it on something else. So there’s just this assumption that the decisions that women make with their money are wrong.

And then if you look at the advice for men, the publications, the advice columns, the whatever, it’s like go make more money. It’s like learn to invest, talk to your friends and see if they have ideas or businesses you can invest in, start a side hustle. Men are taught to generate wealth and revenue and women are taught to conserve whatever, presumably, some man gave to them.

Bonnie: Right, because we are not good with spending money. Yeah, the bag thing, that’s interesting. I don’t think I’ve thought of that, but it’s true. I know women are really afraid to post things that show people that they spent a lot of money. Because I’m in these physician groups, and so they’re higher earners and I’ll see posts like, “I can’t post on my public page, but I’m going on this amazing vacation” or blah, blah, blah. And so that is interesting.

But yeah, if people post their new Chanel bag, there will be comments about why are you showing off or that sort of thing. So yeah.

Kara: You should have given the money away. I don’t really feel like when male entrepreneurs post photos of whatever they’re doing, people are like, that’s so selfish of you, you should have given that money away. But women, this is like another piece of socialization, is that we are taught that women exist to care for and serve others, right?

And obviously, there’s nothing wrong with charity, or investing in people, or using your money to help advance causes you care about. I think charity is kind of a weird word, but using your money to help empower people to solve problems that you care about. I do that, I’m sure you do that, I’m sure your listeners do that.

But the idea that sort of, you know, it’s like anything a woman does with money other than give it away, basically, is suspect.

Bonnie: Yeah, suspect.

Kara: Or spend it on her children. But even that, like why do you have to get your children those nice clothes? They don’t need to go to private school. Whatever it is, right? Whereas if a man posts about that it’s like, what a good provider, what a good dad. He cares so much about his family.

Bonnie: Yeah, obviously, we both think it’s effed up. So we got a lot of work to do. So let’s talk a bit about the patriarchy because it’s like I knew what the word was – It’s funny, I went to an all-women’s school. I went to Barnard College. And so I’m sure there was something I learned, but it was so long ago.

Kara: I’m sure the patriarchy came up at some point at Barnard.

Bonnie: They have a Women’s Studies department. When I heard you talk about it, it just, like I said, it kind of gave language and it just made like, oh, this is why this happened. This is why. And then I just assumed, and maybe I’m the only one, I was like, I’m just guessing that there are people out there, listeners who may not have been educated on that as well.

So I kind of wanted to, I know we’re not going to cover it all in one podcast, but just patriarchy 101. Why should women care? And obviously, my audience are high income, perfectionist, type A women, which I think is a lot of your audience too.

Kara: I’ve never met one of those. I have no idea. I definitely wasn’t one myself. And I’m definitely not running a membership full of them. No, no idea what that’s like.

Bonnie: So maybe like, I know I’m asking a lot, a few sentences.

Kara: Yeah, I can absolutely do it in a short version.

Bonnie: Okay, let’s do that.

Kara: I also just kind of want to say I think that you’re onto something when you said women sort of know what’s happening, but we don’t always have language for it. Even words like feminist and patriarchy, I think kind of have reputations. It’s like the words have a lot of baggage.

So if I say to people like, the patriarchy, blah, blah, blah, for some people, that’s an automatic turnoff and they can’t listen. But if we say like, hey, what I’m talking about is how you got different messages when you were growing up compared to your brother, most women, I mean, unless they’re like talking heads on Fox News being paid to be delusional and in denial.

Most women, especially once they’ve been in the workforce for a while, are like, yeah. People sometimes treat me differently. I hear different things about my male colleagues versus me. My mother didn’t do this particular one, but just as an example, yeah, my mom was preoccupied with what I was wearing and how I looked. And I didn’t see her worrying so much about what my brother looked like or what he was wearing.

Bonnie: For sure, that was me.

Kara: Yeah.

Bonnie: I gained like half a pound and she would say something, literally.

Kara: Right. Right, and most of the time, people’s brothers or male cousins or whatever didn’t have that same level of scrutiny. So when we talk about, you know, whether or not you identify with the word feminist or like the word patriarchy or whatever, I think most women can acknowledge that they received some different messages than the men that they saw growing up about who they’re supposed to be, what’s important about them, what matters about them.

The definition that I would use for patriarchy, if we want to use the word, is really just that society was created by certain groups who had more power than other groups. Now, it’s not all top down. Obviously, people who had less power or less money have greatly contributed to the building and structure of our society, right? But the sort of rules and the norms tend to be created by the people in power and then enforced on everybody else.

And so if you are in a society, like let’s take the United States where white landholding men were the people who wrote the Constitution and were allowed to vote. It’s not even all white men, you had to also own land. Like a very small percentage of the human bodies on the continent at that time, right? If the society is created by those people, they naturally create a society that is in line with their beliefs about the world.

And their beliefs were that men were more rational than women. That white people were better than people of color, and especially Black and enslaved people. That landowners were smart and poor people were worth nothing. These were the thoughts that they had. And so then they create a governmental structure.

So we’re starting from that and now, obviously, we have tried to adapt society. We’ve amended the Constitution, other people can vote now. A woman can have a bank account. We don’t have indentured servitude or slavery anymore. Obviously, there has been social progress. But when you’re starting and building a society with a certain set of beliefs, whether that’s sexist, or racist, or ableist, or fat phobic, or whatever else, that stuff permeates the whole culture. It permeates the way that we talk and think.

And so patriarchy technically is just a system in which men have power over women. But the reason it’s relevant to us, even if we don’t feel it in our daily lives, like I’m allowed to go to law school. I can have a credit card in my name. I have a business, I can hire people. I don’t have to get married.

A lot of that stuff has changed, but a lot of the social and cultural norms still exist, like what matters about a woman mostly or at least half is her appearance. What it’s like to be childless in our society, or to choose not to have children. What we think women are good at, what we think men are good at.

All of this is the socialization that still remains, even if we’ve made some legal and policy changes. And obviously, we haven’t made all of them. We still have a ways to go on the political front also.

Bonnie: Yeah, as you were talking I just was thinking about all the things. It’s like we can’t win if you’re a mom. Like if you’re a mom, it’s like why aren’t you staying home with the kids? But then if you are at home, they’re like, why are you just sitting around and not making money?

Kara: Right, you’re supposed to parent like you don’t have a job and then work like you don’t have children.

Bonnie: Yeah, exactly. Okay, so let’s tie this into how this affects how women think about money. So one of the things that I thought was, maybe not the word interesting, but I remember when we worked together you were telling me – And maybe I heard this wrong, so correct me, that you don’t have super –

Kara: Pause. You’re doing so many disclaimers, Bonnie. This is like patriarchal socialization in action. Everything you’ve said on this podcast you’ve been like, maybe I’m the only one who thought this. Maybe this is wrong. Maybe this is whatever.

That’s just how deep it is. You’re an empowered person, you’re a business owner, you teach on this stuff. But women are – You do not hear a lot of men saying that. Actually, my partner does and it stands out to me because most men don’t start everything with like, I might be wrong.

Bonnie: No, you’re absolutely right. This is a lesson in motion, real-time here.

Kara: Yeah, real-time. We all do it. I do it too. I’m like, “Does that make sense?” after I’ve said something totally cogent to my area of expertise.

Bonnie: This might be a dumb question.

Kara: Yeah.

Bonnie: Yeah, that’s a common thing, especially in money situations. Like in my money Facebook group, people are like, this might be a dumb question, but blah, blah, blah. I’m like, first of all, you’re here to learn.

Kara: Right. Right. Right.

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay, so I remember you saying that you didn’t have super bad thoughts about money going into, like compared to maybe some other women in business.

Kara: Like what has been my money mindset journey?

Bonnie: Yeah. Yeah, there you go.

Kara: So I think that, you know, as with anything, there’s more than one thing that impacts the way that we think. So there’s more than one form of socialization, right? You get gender socialization, but then you also get socialization around, you know, there’s white supremacy socialization in our society, right?

So there’s racist socialization, there’s socialization around ableism and disabled people, around people’s body size, around people’s language abilities. There’s so many layers to it. And then you also, on top of all of that, you have just your personal, like what does your family believe about money? What did they tell you? What did you experience growing up? So there’s so many layers to this stuff.

So for me, I was raised in, like I had sort of two sets of thoughts very on offer because my father was an entrepreneur and my mother was a nonprofit, like a social justice lawyer, basically. She was employed by the federal government. So she was a federal public defender. So a criminal defense lawyer for people who can’t afford a lawyer.

So I had two very different kinds of pathways and two very different sets of thoughts about money and what creates money and what creates value and how abundant or scarce money is and how it should be spent and all this stuff.

And the way my parents did things, they really functioned kind of independently financially, which in some ways was a really good lesson for me. But also meant there wasn’t a sort of like this is how we, as a family, think about money. It was like two different people, two different sets of thoughts.

And growing up, because I started out as a – I mean I’m very mission driven, was then, am now. I actually don’t think my mission of liberating women has changed. But I started out doing it in a more traditional way of like, well, I’m going to go to law school and become a nonprofit lawyer.

And so that mindset was very like money is something other people give me. There’s a certain amount, I have to conserve it, right? Like guilt around spending. Not at all believing that sort of I could decide how much money I wanted to create, or that I could create money.

And there was just a lot of like my grandmother – Kind of a lot of, I think, Jewish parents and grandparents of that era, like had lived through the depression. Well, people of any religion lived through the depression, but there’s a particular sort of like Jewish typology of this, like who had lived through the depression and then she had made money in her family’s furniture business.

She was extremely thrifty and frugal. So she actually had built up some resources, but was just, you know, would take three buses to get apples that were two cents cheaper in Chinatown, when that was completely not necessary and she could have gone to the grocery store around the corner. That kind of level.

Bonnie: I feel like that’s more common in women. You don’t really hear about –

Kara: Men doing it as much.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Kara: Yeah, there are some. But I think it makes sense, especially for women of her generation. She actually did have a business and she had a law degree, but both of those things were unusual. And for women of prior generations, especially people who are our grandmother’s age or older, you often were just dependent on your husband.

You maybe hadn’t even gone to college or you’d stopped working 50 years ago. So you were kind of like, okay, whatever has been left to me or given to me is what I have. So I better make this stretch, right? Anyway, I got off on a little bit of a tangent.

But once I became an entrepreneur, obviously, I had to change all that, right? You can’t be an entrepreneur successfully thinking other people determine how much money I have. I need to just conserve it, I should never spend it. There’s shame and guilt around spending and believing that people who want to make money are bad.

All of that had to change. So it was tough. It was definitely two years of my coach yelling at me a lot in a loving consensual way.

Bonnie: Yeah. Well, that’s kind of what you did for me last year.

Kara: Yeah. Right? Now I pay it forward by love yelling at other people about their money mindset. But I see such common ones in the women that come through my feminist business mastermind, this sort of group I do only for my advanced certification graduates. I think the number one thing is really like, yes, there’s abundance, scarcity, all the kind of normal coaching stuff.

But the thing that nobody else really, I feel like, is talking about is the way that women are socialized to just assume that whatever financial decisions they made were wrong. People show up with so much shame about completely normal business things. Like launching something that doesn’t work, or having a year when you lose more than you make, or all sorts of shit that happens all the time in business.

And I think most men are just like, “Well that’s business. Yep, this year we’ll make money, we’ll be in the profit again.” And women are like, “Oh my God, I’m terrible at this. I shouldn’t be allowed to do it. I fucked it up. I have to try to make up for it myself. I have to not ask for help. I can’t get coached on it.” I mean, there’s so much shame.

Bonnie: Sounds like me.

Kara: Yeah, but you weren’t alone, right? There were other people in the group. And that, to me, is like a product of gender socialization. The way that women are socialized to basically make everything that happens to them a personal failing and to just like baseline assume that they’re bad with money.

Bonnie: Yeah, I mean, the same thing obviously happens in personal finance, since that’s what my program is focused on, it’s not a business program. But yeah, everyone thinks that they made all these past decisions and they were all wrong and they effed up.

Kara: Yeah, the same socialization shows up wherever you are.

Bonnie: Yeah. And that it’s too late. That’s what people say, like I made all these bad decisions, it’s too late. I’m behind, I’m going to be working till I’m 80 now or whatever.

Kara: Right, and that’s that perfectionist black and white thinking, right? It’s like I made one bad decision, therefore, I am lacking in value as a human. I am not worthy of being alive. I can never, right? And all of that shame, of course, as you know, and people who are following you know, if you think about what do our thoughts create? All that shame creates us not solving a problem that can be totally solvable and it compounds, right?

It’s like your financial decisions compound positively or negatively. And telling yourself, like having all this shame because you, okay, went into debt, or made a bad investment, or made a bad purchase, right, or whatever it is.

Bonnie: Or got divorced.

Kara: Or got divorced. Or okay, you went on a vacation you couldn’t afford technically. Whatever it is, these things are repairable and fixable, but when we treat them as basically indicia of our true unworthiness and inability to ever take care of our money and our financial selves, we’re just compounding the problem.

And we’re opting out and continuing to believe that someone out there knows better than we do. And probably his name is Chad, and he got an MBA two years ago and he’s the financial advisor at your bank. I’m like, what the fuck does he know?

Bonnie: Yeah, I’ve done that with some of my clients, like what would Chad do? And they always know the answer.

Kara: And Chad, in real life, often doesn’t know the answer, right? I mean the studies show that you can’t outsmart the stock market, basically. I think it also ties into how women are socialized around math. It’s like we equate these things, like money is math and math is hard. And women are socialized to believe they’re not good at math, even people who had to do some math, like they’re doctors, or engineers, or even architects or whatever, we still maintain that kind of subconscious belief.

Bonnie: I’m sure you saw this reel, and I have it saved because I think it’s hysterical. I forget, it’s one of the – I don’t watch TV, but anyway, one of the things she said is she was pretending to be a man. She’s like, I make more money for no reason. And so she just was going on about that sort of thing.

So yeah, a lot of women physicians find that they’re getting paid less, even though they’re at the same level compared to a man. I had a client who was like this and I said, well, if you know this, why don’t you say something? She’s like, well, I don’t want to rock the boat. So that’s also part of the socialization.

Kara: Oh my God, like throw yourself over the boat. Turn the boat over. We all have the stories about why – This is why people pleasing is so deep. We all have these stories about why we can’t rock the boat or can’t say anything, but it goes all the way up, right?

So you might hear somebody working in a factory be like, I can’t bring this up because I can’t afford to get fired because I won’t pay my rent. You’re like, okay, that math checks out. But then you’re up here and somebody is making hundreds of thousands of dollars as a doctor and they’re like, no, I can’t say anything either, right?

It’s like we all have these reasons that we can’t speak up about it, we can’t talk about it, we can’t ask about it. And the truth is that there’s both structural issues, and there’s personal. So you may be being paid less partly because you don’t negotiate, you don’t speak up. That’s something you can resolve. You may be being paid less because the person who sets the pay scale is a sexist, that’s also possible. But you have to speak up to at least try to know what you’re dealing with.

And then you have to work on believing that you can do what you do somewhere else if you need to. Because while there are places that are run by people who won’t see you as an equal, there also are places run by people who will. You have to also vote with your feet and your job application and your work, right? Part of the reason people get so stuck is that then they generalize like well, it’s like this everywhere. It’s not like that everywhere.

Bonnie: Yeah, no, totally true. What do you think – Well, first of all, I don’t know if you know this, but have you heard of Press Ganey?

Kara: I don’t think so.

Bonnie: Okay, so doctors are now, besides the fact that they’re rated by Yelp and Google, there’s actually a company called press, like P-R-E-S-S, Ganey.

Kara: Okay.

Bonnie: A lot of institutions use this company and it’s like this standardized rating system. And a patient gets a survey and they rate, not just the doctor, but how was your check-in? How was your experience making an appointment? And there is a part where they “give feedback” on the doctor.

And in some places, I actually think Kaiser is one of them, the reviews, if it’s not above a certain amount, your pay actually goes down. So you can imagine that women are rated less because of the way patients are socialized. And it’s kind of messed up on so many levels.

Kara: That’s interesting, so the data is showing that women are rated lower? Because I’ve also seen studies saying that people with women doctors actually have higher satisfaction with their doctor because the doctor actually listens to them.

Bonnie: Yeah. Well, okay, I don’t actually know the data, but I also know a lot of women are having – So, actually, I remember when I was practicing, every time there was a “bad” review, you got notified.

Kara: Yeah.

Bonnie: It’s just the fact that like – Anyway, and then I had to go to a board if I wanted to argue about it so it doesn’t go on my page. And so I went and then they had very strict criteria of what would get thrown out.

And then basically, it was thrown out because the person was making a comment about how I, not how I looked, but it was – I don’t even remember the exact thing, but they were making a comment about a look that I gave to the patient that may or may not be true. So that’s the only reason why it was thrown out.

But I just remember thinking like – And just the fact that our pay can be tied to – Obviously there are doctors who are assholes, right?

Kara: Right. And I think pay is tied – So I think we have to separate out some different things, right? One thing that’s going on is the sort of structure of healthcare and how it’s delivered and the kind of large scale automation of that in some way, right?

And that’s happening to women and men. And if we don’t have the data of how people are being rated, then I can’t speak to it directly. But I think there’s a statistical thing probably happening, which is, let’s say, like people certainly – I mean, there’s definitely data showing that women doctors or doctors of color are taken less seriously by patients, right? So let’s say that’s happening.

There’s some stuff you can do with the way that you’re thinking and showing up, and then there’s some stuff that is social change that has to happen. But I think, for me, I’m always really coming at this from a pragmatic point of view, which is like, okay, we live in this world. Now, how do I want to show up?

Bonnie: I just was looking up the Press Ganey data while you were talking, just to give some data points.

Kara: Okay, what’s the data? What do we have?

Bonnie: So I just found one, I’m not going to spend too much time looking at it. But they were talking about gynecologists, that women gynecologists are 40% less likely to receive top patient satisfaction scores compared with their male counterparts. That’s a specific, obviously, specialty.

Kara: Interesting.

Bonnie: Anyway, there’s probably a lot more data on that. I do know that. Female doctors have better outcomes than male doctors.

Kara: Right. Right. So I think there’s like, when we’re talking about how can we use coaching to deal with a world in which there is injustice and unfairness, right? I think we always want to be distinguishing between there are systemic level changes that need to happen, obviously. And the system is stacked and rigged in various different ways, depending on your identity, right, or your cluster of identities and the way that people respond to you.

And since we can’t snap our fingers and change that tomorrow, how are we going to show up and try to navigate the situation, right? How are we going to navigate living in a society that has structural inequality and injustice in it that affects us in some ways, and maybe not in others? And how are we going to do the work on ourselves so that we can be willing to rock the boat to change the system, right?

We can’t sit here and be like, I want everything to change. But I’m not willing to rock the boat or put my neck out at all, right? Where’s the change going to come from? Especially if you’re somebody who has some economic privilege, or has some racial privilege, or has some educational privilege or whatever. If you want things to change, you have to be willing to try to change them.

So I think, for me, what coaching can do, since you’re a coach and I’m a coach and this is a coaching related podcast is like how can we create the most empowerment we can in ourselves so that we can deal with systems that are unjust or unfair, right? And for every individual person that might look different, right? That’s why coaching or thought work is not one size fits all.

Some people might be like, I am going to rock this fucking boat, I’m going to circulate a petition or whatever, right? And some people might be like, you know what? I actually have never wanted to work for this large health system. And the reason I’m doing this is that I don’t believe that I can do my own thing, or I don’t believe I can get an investor to start a private practice, I don’t believe in myself.

So that’s what I’m going to end up being empowered to do if I deal with my own thoughts. I’m going to go try to start my own thing. I mean, I stopped being a lawyer. Like I’m going to be a basket weaver, whatever your thing is. I don’t think it’s one size fits all.

So I don’t think that there’s one answer to how do we use coaching to deal with X? It’s like we use coaching to undo the socialization we’ve gotten that is keeping us believing that we’re powerless, we can’t make a difference, we’re stuck, our lives are now going to be run by this algorithm, right?

Okay, we’re now in a world with the algorithm and with sexist patients who don’t even know they’re sexist most of the time. Now, what are we going to do about it, right? And people’s answers are going to be different. And some people are going to want to change the system from inside and some people don’t want to bring the system down. And some people are going to wake up and be like, wait, how the fuck did I even get here? What am I doing? I actually want to be a park ranger.

And all of those are great outcomes, right? But we can’t know for you, you have to do the work to figure out what you are really called to and capable of doing.

Bonnie: Yeah, I really like that point that you just made, that we can’t just sit around waiting for the system to change. Because I think that’s what a lot of doctors do, and this is not blaming them. But I think a lot of us feel like there’s nothing we can do.

And one thing I learned from you that really just was a game changer for me is that you said something like systems are created by people.

Kara: Right.

Bonnie: Versus like this machine in the background that we can’t control.

Kara: Yeah. This is why it’s so crazy to me that people think that coaching and self-empowerment work is somehow a different thing than social change. Who do we think is changing society? Who has ever changed society? It’s been people who were taught one thing and were like, I don’t think so. I don’t think that’s right. I don’t think I am stupider than a man. I don’t think I shouldn’t be able to go to school. I don’t think that you’re better than me just because of the color of your skin. I don’t think this seems like junk science.

The people who have changed things have been the people who were taught something as part of their socialization and had, for whatever reason, the vision or the courage or the whatever to be like, no, I refuse to believe that. I want something different.

And how fortunate are we that now there’s like, I mean, if you were the first woman who wanted to go to law school, you couldn’t go hire a coach to help you change your thinking to feel brave enough to do it. You had to do that shit yourself.

And so how fortunate are we that we can actually hire somebody to help us change our thought process? Whether it’s to make more money, to change our spending, to negotiate more, to have a side hustle to invest. Or in my world to whatever, ask for the promotion, start the business, ask that person out on a date, whatever it is.

I think we’re living in the best time ever, where we can actually go learn how to do that in a systematic way. Because everybody before us had to just figure that shit out for themselves.

Bonnie: Yeah, and the fact that we can meet people kind of doing similar things very easily online, et cetera.

Okay, so one tip that you gave me that I loved, and I was hoping that maybe you had some other sort of tips as well is you told me –

Kara: That was it. Whatever it was, was my one tip. I got nothing else.

Bonnie: It was about telling the best story about our numbers versus sad stories. And obviously, this is what we teach. There’s circumstances and then there’s thoughts, right, stories. And how most of us –

So one thing that I thought was so fun was, for example, people in business, we judge ourselves. Like one year I made this, one year I went down, which is what happened to me. I remember you saying business is not like a linear, rocket ship trajectory.

Kara: Right.

Bonnie: And it’s like logically I knew that, but for some reason I was making myself wrong. But what I did was add up all the money I’ve ever made in my business, which was a little over 1.5 million. And that was like, just seeing that number, I was like, whoa.

So instead of thinking I made less money than last year, so therefore I suck and I’m never going to make money again, dramatic. Versus I am a seven-figure coach. So I thought that was really beautiful. And it helped me sort of reframe how I look at money. And I’ve really helped my clients, I actually had them do this exercise. And if they’re doctors and they’ve been in practice for a while, they’ve all made over a million dollars, right? So just thinking about their numbers, that was so powerful.

So I just was wondering if there was anything else that you find yourself sort of saying over and over again, because obviously you do coach on money mindset with your clients as well.

Kara: I mean, this is honestly the big one, especially for money, but it really applies to everything. It’s like women are trained to look at things the worst way possible for themselves. We’re always looking for evidence of our own inadequacy or unworthiness, right?

And so even if it’s not money, it’s like I make people do this with their romantic history. I’ve never really had a normal relationship. And I’m like, okay, write down all the people you’ve ever dated. And then there’s a bunch of people, and then they have to see why are they telling the story this way, versus you could just as equally be telling the story of like, I’m always dating somebody, lots of people are interested in me, right? Or whatever it is.

So it’s like looking for the best way to tell it. I mean, I think with money especially, one trick I’ve used that sort of builds on this is like if the dollar amount doesn’t give you that feeling, to think about it as an amount of gumballs, where each quarter is a gumball. So I coached a student of mine on this who is a coach who had set a goal to make 100 grand. And she’d made like 14,000 that year and she had a lot of thoughts about that.

And my coaching her and doing the kind of total amount didn’t blow her mind because it was like her first year. And I was like, okay, but let’s think about how can you love that number? Let’s think about how many gumballs that would be, or how many quarters. Gumballs were more fun. So then we did the math and then we were googling whatever it is 100,000 gumballs, a million gumballs.

It’s just creating that feeling of abundance and learning to celebrate each quarter, each gumball, each dollar. I think that’s one of the reasons that I have made, like that I have been successful in building a business when I had no business experience and still refuse to do half the things you’re supposed to do to have a business.

It’s just that I was always being like, I sold what my first coaching package and it was like, great. I’m a coach who makes like $500 an hour. Even though I was only working like one hour a week. It was like, okay, but that hour is worth $300 or whatever it was.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Kara: And that person I coached about the gumballs practiced it, and then I think the next year she made her first 100 and now she makes two or three hundred a year. But it’s that like loving – I hate saying things that sound like very cliche coaching things, like loving the money you have.

Bonnie: That is true though.

Kara: And that sounds very vague, but for me it really is. It’s more like appreciating it, right? Especially when you’re a higher earner. It’s like, okay, I understand that your lifestyle might require this amount of money. I support a partner and partly support his kids. I have a nice apartment we rent. I understand, my monthly bills are up there too. But I still look at it like this is so much money, right?

Yes, okay, it’s keeping pace with my lifestyle. But I still have this feeling, I don’t know how to describe it. It’s almost like this childlike joy and wonder of like, I’ll see somebody post like I made $100,000 this month, and I’ll be like, “Oh my God, that’s so amazing. I want to make $100,000 this month.” And then I’m like, I do. The business brings in five and a half million in revenue a year, so that’s more than $100,000 a month.

But that happens to me all the time but I think it’s because I’m in this space of like, that’s so much money, that’s amazing. So even when somebody’s like, “I’ve made $20,000 coaching,” I’m like, that’s $20,000. I kind of try to adapt like a six year olds mindset. Like my partner’s six year old is like, “$10!” Like that. But it’s that joy and enthusiasm is actually what allows you to create more wealth if that’s what you want to do.

Bonnie: Yeah, basically, the two things I want to summarize is, it’s like we hate on – Because I did this too. It’s like every dollar that comes in, I used to be like, it’s not enough. It’s only like $100, or like, whatever, versus appreciating it. It’s kind of like that, I’m sure you know that book, The Gap versus The Gain.

Kara: Yeah.

Bonnie: Like we’re looking at the space between where we want to be and what’s happening.

Kara: Just imagine that you have a relationship with money like a person. If your partner came home every day and you were like, “Ugh.” How long would your relationship be happy? Would you be getting dividends from that? Would it be growing? Probably they’re not going to stick around to get married.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Kara: It’s the same thing, but when you think that way about money, it’s not mystical. It’s not like you’re repelling money by not liking it. I’m not woo about that. But when you are rejecting what you have, you’re bumming yourself out and making yourself feel bad and shitting on your own abilities, which does not translate into the confidence and go-getter-ness to create more.

Bonnie: Yeah. Actually, you know what you said about how when you see people post about money you’re like, “Oh my God, that’s so much money. I want to do that.” I remember getting coached by Brooke and it was one year when I made, I don’t know, $300,000. And, of course, I’m like, “Well, Brooke makes so much more money. She’s not going to care.” And then she’s like, “Oh my God.” She’s like, “That’s a lot of money.”

Kara: Right? Exactly. That’s my attitude about it. I’m like this person had a $75,000 launch, that’s so amazing. Even though, yeah, I do make more than that. But it doesn’t matter. The point is that I’m enthusiastic about it on their behalf. I’m more excited for my clients about the money they make than they are.

Bonnie: For sure.

Kara: But I think that’s actually part of why I make more, because I’m excited about it.

Bonnie: Yeah. I think, at least with Brooke, I thought she’d be judging me because I make so much less than she does.

Kara: Right, but that’s you judging yourself. We’re like, that’s so cool.

Bonnie: Yeah. No, no, absolutely right. Yeah, because I have a group of friends and they all make over seven figures and I don’t. And so I’m still working on this internally, but I feel like I’m not – I guess it’s like a self-worth thing. Like I’m not as good as them and so why are they even friends with me? Like, I have thoughts like that.

Kara: But it’s also relative, right? So this is like, I once had this conversation with somebody where they were like, they were complaining about something. And I was like, basically you’re in the top 1% of this thing that you’re complaining about, right? And they were like, I don’t want to compare myself to people who are not doing as well as me. I only want to compare myself to people doing better. And I was like, great, that’s a recipe for pessimism for your whole life.

It’s not about comparing yourself to others. First of all, not everybody wants to make a lot of money. And if they do and they haven’t figured it out yet, there’s nothing wrong with that. So it’s not about looking down on anyone. But this thing we, like I’m in a mastermind group where two of the people make way more money than me. I don’t ever compare myself to them. And I don’t feel bad about that, right?

But you and so many people like you are in a room, it’s like you put yourself in a room with people who are making more than you because you want to inspire you and move up to that. But then you shit on yourself for not being there yet.

Bonnie: No, totally.

Kara: Whereas you could put yourself in a room where you’re the one who makes the most money, right? You could decide I want to be a big fish in a small pond. And then you could base your self-esteem on that.

But as entrepreneurs and people who want to grow, we do this completely batshit thing where we’re like, I’m going to intentionally put myself in a place where I’m a small fish because I want to be inspired to grow. And then I’m going to shit on myself for being a small fish.

Bonnie: Yeah. The thought is something like I’m worth less because of the money I make, as if money determines our self-worth.

Kara: Right, but that’s such nonsense, right? You just think about all the people who had like – First of all, human life is just innately worth the same, right? I don’t believe that anybody is worth more than anybody else on a human life level. But also we make it mean something about our intelligence, our skill or whatever. That’s obviously not true.

There are people who would have been brilliant geniuses who were born into circumstances that didn’t allow them to express that, right? And the fact that they didn’t win the Nobel Prize, or didn’t make the money, or didn’t whatever was actually not a reflection on their talent or their skill or their intelligence at all, right?

So just this idea that, number one, the idea that our worth or value can differ, especially depending on how much money we made. Like who gives a shit? And two, the idea that where we are is like this verdict on our capabilities which is for us just another way of being like our worth.

Bonnie: Yeah, totally.

Kara: They’re just self-destructive thought patterns. But to bring it all full circle for the end, women are socialized to think that way, right? Women are taught that men – I mean, obviously these are huge generalizations, but in general people socialized as men just hear the message that they’re worthy for existing, right?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Kara: And women, people who are socialized as women hear that they need to prove their worth and value over and over by looking good enough, by people wanting to have sex with them, by producing children, by keeping a clean home, by succeeding at their job, by making everybody happy, everybody like them, serving everybody else. The list goes on and on and on of the ways women are supposed to prove their value and worth.

So men are socialized to believe that their worth and value is stable. And then women it’s like the stock market, it goes up and down depending on, right? My favorite saying about the stock market is it’s a graph of rich people’s emotions. Like women are socialized –

So all of this comes back to that. All of this constant hustling and comparing and self-critique and sort of jockeying for like where am I? And am I good enough? Some of us are like, now who’s the right group of people to compare myself to to know if I’m good enough or not?

All of that comes from this belief that you have to do something, your worth and value is not innate. And the best thing you can do for yourself, to make more money, to get the job you want, to find the partner you want, to be a better parent. Like for anything you want in your life, the best thing you can do if you’re socialized as a woman, or any other marginalized person, is to work on that belief in your inherent, unchangeable worth and value.

Bonnie: So if you want to learn more about this and also unfuck your brain in all the areas, such a brilliant name by the way.

Kara: Thank you.

Bonnie: Did you come up with it or someone else did?

Kara: I came up with it in like a retreat with a coach I was working with.

Bonnie: Yeah, go check out Kara. And we’ll obviously link show notes and everything, but it’s Kara – Is a karaloewentheil.com?

Kara: You can just go to unfuckyourbrain.com or you can search Unfuck Your Brain on any podcast app, anywhere you get your podcasts. And on social media it’s my name, which is a little more complicated. It’s @KaraLoewentheil. So just go to unfuckyourbrain.com, that will make it easier.

Bonnie: Yeah, I spell your name wrong sometimes.

Kara: You’re not alone.

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay. Well, thank you so much for being here and we’ll talk soon, I’m sure.

Kara: My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Why You Should Want to Make More Money

153: Why You Should Want to Make More Money

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If you’ve been keeping up with the podcast, you’ll know that I’ve been diving deep into the history of women and money in celebration of Women’s History Month. It’s so vital for us to understand where our beliefs about money come from and that we’re not alone if money scares or confuses us.

But what do we do with all of this information as we look toward our future? My goal is to convince you that you should want to make a lot more money than you are right now. However, if you’re like most women, you might experience some resistance to this, so it’s time to acknowledge what’s really possible when more women make lots of money.

Join me this week to hear why there’s no better way to make a difference and an impact than to become rich. I’m sharing how having deep-seated negative beliefs keeps women from making and having lots of money, and I’m offering questions you can ask yourself about why you should want to make more money.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why it’s important for all of us to learn about the history of women and money.
How our thoughts about money aren’t really our own.
2 reasons you should want to make more money.
Why wanting to make more money is not greedy.
How having negative beliefs about money keeps you from making and having lots of money.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey everyone. I am recording this podcast in Miami and I’m doing it on my iPhone. It’s kind of unbelievable if you think about how technology has really come along where you can literally record a podcast on your phone instead of a fancy studio. Now, I am using an external mic, so I’m not using the iPhone one. So I hope my podcast editor is not too upset that I’m doing it on my phone instead of my regular home mic.

But, this little microphone is super cute. It just attaches to the whatever, the connector. It’s iPhone specific and it even has some other attachments. Anyway, as I said I’m in Miami, and then last weekend I was in Phoenix. And so I have been traveling two weekends in a row and last weekend I was at the White Coat Investor conference. And now in Miami we just finished a few days where I was at a conference called Work Hard Play Hard.

And it was something that my mentor, Brooke Castillo of The Life Coach School, created. And it was a conference for her certified coaches and also coaches who are in training. And so a lot of the business stuff that I learned was basic and meant for newer coaches. And then we had basically two parties, one at the beach and one on a boat.

And it really got me thinking, it’s so easy to go somewhere and be like, well, that was meant for beginners, it doesn’t apply to me, or I already know this. And I definitely found myself going there. And I also know how valuable it is to listen to the basics, even if you know it because, A, it’s probably been some time since you’ve heard it. B, you are not the same person when you first listened to it.

And I will say your brain is not the same. Your brain has made different connections, you understand differently, you hear things in a different way. And sometimes just hearing something you already know makes big changes.

And so I actually had some, I guess you could say realizations about things I’m doing in my business or rather things that I’m not just based on some assumptions and just hearing her mention some really basic principles kind of just got me thinking in different ways.

Anyway, that’s not what I wanted to talk about today, but it’s been a great weekend. It’s also really warm here in Miami, it’s been high 70s, 80s and sunny. And so that’s been really nice to get away from the Northeast cold.

So, as you know, we’ve been doing topics related to women’s history month and I actually have two interviews coming up that I know will be so powerful, and you’re going to learn so much with two amazing women. And I’ll just stop there so you guys don’t get all the information now.

But what I wanted to talk about today is why am I doing this series? Like why is it important for you to learn about the history of women and money? Why is it important for you to understand how we are socialized?

And I just want to say, it’s not just a nice to know our history type of thing. It is interesting to learn, but the reason why I’m spending time on this is because the history of everything I’ve been talking about when it comes to women and money, and then living in a patriarchy and the way women are socialized is different than men.

What happens is we have internalized all these external beliefs, belief systems about money, and that’s going to differ from person to person based on groups you associate with, whether you identify yourself as being in a marginalized group, where you grew up, if it wasn’t in the US and even if it was in the US, maybe you had parents from a different country. So all of those things kind of converge.

And then it’s in the air, we internalize it because when we’re super young we don’t have the ability to think, our own or new thoughts. And by the time you’re an adult, you really aren’t thinking thoughts that are your own. They basically are thoughts that have been passed down generation to generation. And it’s not an accident that myself and all of my clients believe what their parents believed about money.

And so the reason why this is important is because when you realize that you’re not the only one who has the same thoughts and feelings about money, or really any topic, it normalizes it. And I will say that’s probably one of the most powerful things that my clients experience when they work with me because we have a community inside of my Live Wealthy program.

And they realize they’re not the only one who doesn’t know what’s going on with money. They’re not the only one who’s scared of looking at it. For example, on a recent call we talked about spending plans. And I think it was really freeing for women to hear that everyone basically doesn’t really want to look at their money and look at how they’re spending or whatever, and looking at their budget. Like no one wants to do that.

And so I think it’s easy to think, oh, well, I’m the only one and why am I the only one? So there’s that part. And so that’s understanding where we came from, where our money thoughts came from.

But today I kind of want to talk about what we should do after all that. Like thinking about the future, about yourself with regard to money. And so today my goal is to convince you that you should want to make a lot more money than you are right now. And this is going to require you to do a lot of inner work about whatever thoughts you have about making a lot of money.

Most of us feel like it’s not becoming or it’s greedy to want more or, you know, that’s why there are sayings like, well, it’s not just about the money, and why we have to qualify things when we’re doing anything that involves making more money.

And so all of that stuff is because of how we’ve been socialized. So why should you want to make more money? I think, really, there are two basic reasons, at least for me. So the first one is, money solves a lot of problems. And what I mean by that is, it solves a lot of problems. If it’s a problem that money can solve, fantastic, right? It’s going to be different for every person.

And when I say problem, I mean that loosely. I don’t mean like serious problems, although sometimes they are, right, depending on where you are economically. But if you’re listening to this, you’re already making a very comfortable income. And so if you, for example, want to send your kids to private school, that’s a problem that money will solve. Or you would like to take more vacations and you would like to fly first class, that is something money can solve.

It makes life a lot more fun. It gives you the ability to provide and be generous with your friends and loved ones. I really don’t know, okay, I’m just thinking, I really don’t know anyone who wouldn’t want to be generous with their friends and family. But I realize that’s not everyone, so I don’t want to speak for everyone. But I think if you’re listening, you’re one of those people.

And this actually goes hand in hand with the other reason, here’s something I heard and it really blew my mind. It was from Stu McLaren, and he was one of the business coaches and mentors that I studied with when I started my business. And he said this phrase at a conference and it was something like the more money we make, the more impact we can have.

This sentence has stuck with me for a long time. And I still think about it all the time because it reminds me that wanting to make money is not greedy. It reminds me that the more money I make and the more money I help my clients make and have is actually what’s going to make the biggest difference in the world.

All right, stay with me. Here’s what I mean, the people that I work with are mostly women physicians, that’s probably you. And we like to help people, right? That’s why we went into medicine. And did you know that when you make more money, you can help more people? It’s true because here’s what I know, and let me just give seeing patients as an example.

You’re seeing a patient one on one, right, that’s generally how medicine is practiced. You see a patient one at a time depending on your specialty, or even if you’re a surgeon you’re operating on one person at a time, generally speaking, right? And you’re making a profound difference.

But you could help more people if you could, I’m just thinking out loud here, let’s say you are a surgeon and you want to help as many people who need the type of surgery that you have, for example – Actually, here’s an example that’s just coming to my mind. There are surgeons that go on missions for like cleft palate surgeries, for example, right?

And so let’s say you are a surgeon who felt really passionate that every child that needs this surgery should get it, right? And so one surgeon alone can only do so many surgeries, but he can help so many more people get surgeries if he, I should say she, has a lot of money and is able to fund or send lots of surgeons to these missions and make it possible so that people aren’t not doing it because of money, right?

So does that make sense? So basically, if there’s a surgeon who’s like, I feel really passionate about this and I can only do so many surgeries. And if I have a lot more money, I can send other surgeons, like make it a thing where people just sign up for, I don’t know, a week and it’s not going to impact a week’s worth of income. I’m just thinking out loud, so that’s just an example, right?

And so her having all that money is going to make a much bigger impact than if she was just doing one to one direct surgeries. And so if you’ve been following me for a while you know that I’m passionate and where my values stand when it comes to women’s rights and gun violence. So I’m just going to use that as an example.

And so, during the – I think it was the Uvalde massacre, I know there was a lot of chatter in the Facebook groups that I’m in, you know, people being really upset. And this is something that happens after any sort of major event like this tragedy, you know, when Roe vs. Wade was overturned. And then people generally go back to their lives. I am not judging at all. I’m just sharing my observations.

And it really got me thinking, right? Because I do think there is this prevailing belief that the good people will win. The good people need money to win. The reason why things are changing in this country, and I’m talking specifically about women’s rights and guns, is because the other side has a lot of money and resources.

And so the more money we make, the more impact we can have. And so I remember this Facebook post where people were talking about it, and I don’t remember the exact conversation, so I’m definitely not remembering correctly. But I think I commented saying like, this is why women need to make more money, so we can fund the things that we care about.

And then I just remember one woman got really upset. I may have said something about this game requires money. And when I say game, I was referring to the political game, because it is a game. And that money is what talks in that world.

And so someone got really upset with me saying that this is not a game, these are children’s lives. And I just simply replied saying, I’m on your side and it requires a lot of resources, AKA money, in order to make an impact. And then she, I guess, Googled me and saw that I was a money coach and then she basically said lots of expletives and I think she probably blocked me.

Now, I don’t take things like that personally anymore. But it just really got me thinking on how when you have deep-seated negative beliefs about money, it actually keeps “good” people from making and having a lot of money.

I just find it so interesting, or fascinating I should say, that this is the case in general. Obviously, it’s not everyone. And that, especially among women physicians and similar fields it’s really easy to kind of take this martyr role. Like I am purposely giving up getting paid so that I can help people. And I just want you to consider that the opposite is actually true. You will help a lot more people when you make a lot more money. That’s just how it goes. The more money you make, the more impact you have.

And so I just want to share, and I think I’ve shared this before, but my pie in the sky dream is for me and my rich female entrepreneur friends to donate large sums of money to I just call it the super fund, but I guess I should call it the women’s super fund, where we’re just collectively going to pool millions and millions and millions of dollars together to fund the causes that are most important to us.

So obviously I would partner with women with similar views and similar desires in terms of areas they want to help in, because it is going to require a lot of money. So who better to make a lot of money than the women who want to help people. Not that men don’t want to help people, obviously, but I do think as women we, generally speaking, really love making a difference and making an impact.

And really, I can’t think of a better way to do that than becoming rich. And not only that, by being who you are already. You are already an example of what’s possible to society, to other women, to your sons and daughters, your partners. And I think that’s really important.

And when I think about my son, I don’t have daughters, I think about my son growing up in an environment where he thinks it’s normal for women, AKA his mom, to make a lot of money and how it’s normal, it’s not just a man’s job. And that’s going to impact how he interacts with other women and other men in terms of conversations about money and who can make the money.

So in my own little slice of who I help, when I think about the impact that I’m making, I think of it as multifaceted. And so the people I work with directly inside my Live Wealthy program are predominantly physicians. And the way I think about it is I am helping them to feel better about money first.

Number two, give them the confidence and the belief and the freedom that they can take care of their family and their loved one, most of them are moms and have families. And give themselves the peace of mind and freedom to have the jobs they want, work the way they want.

And, in my opinion, this and also being happier is what’s required if we want the culture of medicine to change, right? We need a lot of doctors, a tipping point of doctors to basically put their feet down and say we’re not going to take this. And they need to feel comfortable with money in order to do that, to stand up for themselves. To me, that’s like step one.

And then inevitably, some of my clients move on to be entrepreneurs, either related or unrelated to medicine, and then they are making an impact whatever they’re doing. And so I can give examples, but there’s so many things my clients end up doing. And then I think of myself and my friends who are entrepreneurs and the collective impact we’ll make because they’re all going to be part of my super fund in the future.

I already told them, in like 10 years, you’re going to have to put in 100k into this super fund that I’m creating. And then we’ll just continue to grow it and collectively decide where we’re going to put the money towards.

And so those are just my dreams and desires. So I’m curious, and I want you to be curious. Ask yourself what is that pie in the sky dream of the difference that you want to make in the world? I know all of you have some kind of desire.

And when I say pie in the sky, I don’t want you to think that it has to be some big, large like you want to feed every person. But if that’s true, I want you to admit that truth to yourself. And so I think sometimes my clients think like, oh, I need to have some crazy, big goal, like save the world. That’s not what I mean.

There are so many ways to make an impact in this world and there is no right way, there is no wrong way. But what is that impact you want to have? Is it on your family? And what I mean by that, because I think this is a beautiful thing to do, is like do you want to be the one that changes the trajectory of your family tree? Like to be the change, not just financially, but also like not passing down those negative, generally scarcity beliefs, right?

That’s where I came from. It’s normal for that immigrant mentality to work hard, study hard, become a doctor or engineer, you know, basically you have five fields available to you. And that’s what you do for the rest of your life. And I think of that in terms of like the way I parent too, right? Like we inherited a certain way of parenting, and then it’s up to me to decide do I want to continue this or do I not want to?

And so that’s kind of how I want you to think of the difference you want to make. And if your brain is saying I don’t know, I just want to challenge you and push you because there is something you want to do. And it might just be something, I’m using the word small, but that’s not what I mean. But I think it’s just so important to listen to our desires.

And I also don’t want you to think I’m telling you that you should only want to make money to make a difference. It should be both, you should want to make money for yourself, for your life, for your loved ones, and to make a difference. And neither is required because I also, honestly, don’t have a problem if you just want to make money for yourself. People don’t like it when people say that, but there’s really nothing wrong with that. Why is that a problem?

Anyway, I digress. In any case, the question I want you to ask yourself is if I want to make a lot more money, why would that be? And just list all your reasons. There are no right ones. There are no wrong ones. Do not judge yourself. It’s okay if it’s because you want to buy a Chanel purse, it’s okay if it’s whatever it is.

I don’t apologize for the fact that I like fancy things, experiences that cost a lot of money. And I also love being generous and paying for people and funding things. And so just write down all of it, tell yourself the truth. Don’t apologize for wanting nice things or things that you might consider frivolous.

And really, the next question is do I actually want to do this? Now, everyone wants, I think, it’d be really weird if you didn’t want to make or have more money, although I’m sure some of you don’t. But then why would you be listening to this podcast?

Anyway, assuming that you do want to have and make more money, then the next question really is, are you willing to do what it takes? And I don’t mean you’re going to have to do weird and sleazy things. But are you willing to do the work that’s going to take?

Now, when I say work, I’m honestly mainly talking about the mental work because there are so many emotional and internal barriers that you will face and have to break through in order to make and have a lot more money. I know, I’m making it sound super attractive and awesome that you want to do this.

But it is probably, at least for me and the people that I interact with, it is one of the fastest ways for you to grow as a person, for your personal growth. It’s going to require so much of you because you’re going to have to really, really confront a lot of limiting beliefs that you have about yourself, and it’s actually very little to do with money. It really comes down to basic things like confidence, worthiness, self-love, et cetera.

But the pursuit of money, and this is like in a business setting or whatever, is going to bring all that stuff up. And interestingly, that work will not only make you a lot of money, it’ll transform your relationships, romantic ones, friendships. It’ll radically change the quality of your life, not just because of having more money. It’s hard to explain, but for those of you inside my program or who have done similar work, you know what I mean.

But I think of it as there are just certain areas of our life, I think money is one of them, I think weight loss is one of them if that’s something you really struggle with, that by being willing to work on those areas, it is what is going to be required for you to have the most growth in yourself.

Honestly, if I had to really think about it, I think money is pretty universal. Not everyone struggles with weight loss and body image. I think women, we all do to some degree, but I do think money tends to be that pervasive topic that most of us are not comfortable with.

So I hope this podcast in particular has inspired you and motivated you, or at least have you consider that maybe you do want to learn and make and have a lot more money because that is what’s going to be required, A, for you to really have the life you want and B, to have the impact that you want on the world. Okay, I will talk to you next week.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | The Truth About Why We Believe We Are “Bad” with Money 2.0

152: The Truth About Why We Believe We Are “Bad” with Money 2.0

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Last week, I kicked off Women’s History Month by sharing a reprise of an episode I did about the history of women and money in the United States. To continue on with this theme, I’m bringing you an episode that is all about our social history, specifically the socialization of women and money.

It’s no accident that so many women believe they’re not good with money. If you’ve ever had thoughts that you need to control your spending or that you should be more responsible with money, I’m showing you where these narratives have come from and how we can begin to change them.

Tune in this week to discover some of the important biases around money that you might not be aware you’re holding. I’m showing you how societal messaging impacts how we think about money, as well as our ability to create more of it, and I’m sharing the first steps in rewriting this history of women and money.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

The societal messaging we have all received that explains why women think the way we do about money.
Some direct comparisons between how boys and girls are taught about money as children.
How it’s often our parents and popular culture teaching us these societal norms and financial gender roles from childhood.
Why most of us don’t even realize what we’ve been taught about money.
How this societal messaging around money gets even worse for physician moms.
Why rewriting this history can only be done once every single one of us is aware of and understands the societal norms that have brought us to this place.

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151: The History of Women and Money 2.0

Read the transcript

Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey everyone, so this is episode two of a special series I am doing for Women’s History month. I’m so excited about some of the upcoming episodes I have, specifically some interviews with some amazing women who are getting the word out and are thought leaders in this space.

Today I am going over some of the common messages and beliefs that women have internalized about money. It is not an accident that many of us believe we are bad with money. So I think you’re going to be in for a surprise. You’re going to hopefully learn something new, and obviously I am bringing this awareness not just for you, but also I really want anyone who’s listening who mentors a woman, whether it’s your daughter or younger colleagues, these are such important conversations to have and important biases that you may not be aware that we have about money.

As always, thank you so much for listening to the podcast. If you haven’t already, please subscribe to the podcast and I would love it if you could write a review on Apple Podcasts, it really helps women find this podcast so they can learn as well. Here we go.

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So, last week I kicked off Women’s History Month by giving you an overview of the history of women and money with highlights from ancient history into modern US history.

And so, to continue on the theme for the month, what I want to talk today is about our social history, specifically the socialization of women and money. So, what exactly does socialization mean? Because I had to look it up. Remember, I’m not really a history buff.

So, I found two definitions that I wanted to put out there. So, the first definition is the process of learning to behave in a way that is acceptable to society. The other definition I found is the process of internalizing the norms and ideologies of society.

So, I think I mentioned last week how I’m currently doing some advanced coach training, specifically around the feminist mindset. What I’m learning specifically is the history, including the social, political, economical, and ideological history of women so that I can better understand why women, including myself, do what we do.

Now, as an individual woman, we might not be affected by any one of these historical societal norm things. But all of this history has basically infused and percolated our society and it contributes to structures that keep certain ideologies, or what I consider “normal” in place.

And I just want to pause for a moment here because one thing that I’ve come to learn for myself is that these societal or social norms, they’re kind of – I was going to say funny, but really, they’re kind of fucked up.

Because we, as women, as humans, we try so hard to fit into these social norms. Which is messed up for two reasons. Number one, these norms are literally made up by people, groups of people. And then groups of people, AKA society somewhat – or I should say somehow – agree to them, consciously or subconsciously, right?

Number two – and this is a big one, guys – society does not reward you for following these norms. You get nothing for being “normal.” Nada. And yet, we’ve all been so conditioned to think that we should strive for “normalcy.” Remember, it’s all made up anyway.

All right, I digress, but let’s go back to the definition of socialization. So, I think understanding how we as women, how we’ve been socialized around money is so important to be aware of. Now, tack on being a mom and a physician, well, we’ve got a lot of messed up socialized beliefs to unpack.

And hopefully, I don’t need to mention that all of you are probably aware, no matter where you are listening in the world, you have probably grown up in a patriarchal society. What that means is a system of society or government in which men hold the power and women are basically excluded from it.

I think understanding all of this is important because I think it allows us to have self-compassion for where we are. And until every one of us, every woman individually can gain this awareness, awareness of these social ideals – remember, they’re made up – that we have internalized, only then can we begin to make changes and, well, literally rewrite history. I can’t wait for a time when our history is going to be way more about us creating wealth than us not creating wealth.

Now, if you’ve been listening to the podcast for a while, this is basically what I usually do. I present a currently accepted idea. Remember, someone made it up. And then I question it and pick it apart. And so, what I thought I’d do today is sort of discuss some of the specific gender-based money ideologies that are out there and help you understand why we women are socially conditioned from a very young age to not create wealth.

Now, I think that’s changing, and we have work to do. So, one of the biggest limiting money beliefs is basically around scarcity. Scarcity simply means not enough, always thinking that we don’t have enough. Now, this is not just about money, but this is about everything. This is the type of thinking that creates things like non-compete clauses, for example.

Now, these aren’t super-amazing studies, but I found a few surveys asking parents about how they talk to their children about money. And so, as you would have guessed, girls are given very different messages about money compared to boys, on average of course. Generally speaking, girls are taught to save and budget, where boys are taught about money as power and to create wealth. Do you see the huge difference right there?

One survey I found also saw that parents were more likely to teach their daughters about fiscal restraint, AKA budgeting, controlling their spending, that sort of stuff. While their sons were more likely to be taught about building wealth.

Now, I’m talking about the ideologies that affect us women. But on the flipside, men have a lot of pressure to be rich. We know that, right? A lot of us women also think that a man who is rich is successful. So, what a crazy different dichotomy that we have between men and women. And that works against men too, as you can see, because a lot of men feel like, if they don’t have enough money, then they really have tied their self-worth to that, right?

Another interesting thing that I found when it comes to how we’re taught about money compared to men, as girls and boys, is that women are often depicted as over-spenders or being thrifty.

The overwhelming majority of money articles geared towards women focus on us being spenders and splurgers. That we have a spending problem and that this is something we have to become in control of. And, in general, there’s a sort of societal norm that if you spend too much money or if you have too many “luxury” things, that you have a spending problem. And if you have a spending problem, you’re a bad person.

Many of you have heard me talk about the correlations between money education and the diet industry. Because the diet industry is kind of built upon a very similar societal ideology that us women cannot figure out our food intake, that we need to control how we eat. Because at least in the US, the societal ideal is to be thin. That’s a whole completely different topic. I don’t coach on weight loss, but I think the similarities are super interesting.

And so, the data actually shows that women and men overspend equally. So, it’s not a female-specific problem. But I don’t know about you, but I honestly can’t think of any finance article for men saying how to control your spending. It’s definitely a female type issue that’s talked about.

So, going back to what I said earlier, how girls are kind of taught to budget and save money versus creating wealth, and even in popular culture we see how women are taught to be cautious with money. That we should be afraid of money, whereas men are taught to be smart with money. And so, ladies, I just want to say it’s not an accident that you think you’re not good with money. It’s literally been ingrained in society that women are not good with money.

And so, I don’t watch I Love Lucy, but in my Google research I found that there’s an episode where Lucy is basically being terrible at managing the household money. And she is behind on all the bills. She forgot to pay bills. And so, her phone and power were actually cut off. Just FYI, the episode is called Business Manager.

And so, basically, from this episode, the sort of themes that emerge are basically that women can’t think ahead to budget for future expenses. Men know more about money than women do. Money needs to be controlled because we can’t control the money, and so we should only get money in increments, or an allowance. Women shouldn’t waste their money on frivolous purchases. And women don’t take enough credit for their financial accomplishments.

The overall theme here is that women, us women, we need to be responsible with money. But nobody is going around telling men, boys, that they need to be careful with their money. It’s much more socially acceptable for them to kind of find their way, take financial risks, and they’re actually socialized to be more courageous about taking risks, whereas us women, we’re not.

We’re taught to be responsible. We’re taught to want and crave financial security. Because us women are so bad with money, we have to be taught how to spend less, how to budget because we can’t be trusted with money.

And to go at this from another angle, one of the patriarchal beliefs is that women, we are too emotional and can’t be trusted to make good decisions, including money. It’s not an accident that it was only until very recently – legally anyway, because we still know it happens – that we were basically given full financial rights as men.

When you sort of collectively put all of these limiting money beliefs together, it is no wonder that us women overvalue financial security. We over-worry about having enough money for retirement. Whereas men are thinking more about wealth creation.

Now, the last thing I want to end with here is a very common thing that all of us are taught, so I don’t think this is a female-specific thing, is how many of us were told growing up, probably by our parents, that money doesn’t grow on trees?

What this sentence basically teaches us is that money is difficult to earn or unattainable. Money is hard. That’s basically what that sentence means. How many of you listening right now think that in order for you to make a lot of money, you have to work very hard?

And it’s not an accident that women working hard are basically seen as not great for society, especially if they are moms. Do you see how all this stuff is kind of wrapped all together? Even though legally we do have full financial rights as men do, we still have so much more work to do.

And next week’s episode, I’m super excited to discuss. So, I just uncovered some of the big, I think, top-down limiting money beliefs that are pretty specific to women. But if you’ve listened to my podcast, this is what I talk about all the time.

And so, I hope you kind of have a deeper understanding now of where all of these BS beliefs come from. It’s not an accident that you think you’re not good with money. It’s not an accident that you think you should focus on saving. It’s not an accident that you think you’re a bad person because you’re overspending. Or, it’s not an accident that you think being thrifty and frugal is morally superior. None of it is an accident.

Okay, I’ll talk to you ladies next week.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | The History of Women and Money 2.0

151: The History of Women and Money 2.0

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Something I’m extremely passionate about is teaching and coaching women around money, specifically, our socialization as it relates to money. The way most women believe and feel about themselves around money is not an accident, and it’s vital for us to understand the sordid history behind it.

As March is Women’s History Month, I’m reprising an episode I shared on the history of women and money, starting from ancient history, and bringing you up to speed to current-day United States. A lot of what I’m sharing will seem crazy to us, but it was the norm for a very long time, and it’ll shed light on why women tend to have limiting beliefs when it comes to money.

Tune in this week as I go over the important dates and milestones throughout history in terms of women’s financial rights, and the women who have fought for the right we take for granted today. You’ll hear how financial autonomy has really only been achieved recently, and how the landscape has changed over time.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why it’s important for us to be familiar with the history of women and money.
The rights we take for granted today that women had to fight for throughout history.
A history of women’s financial rights throughout ancient history and the Middle Ages.
What sparked the idea that women are their husband’s property.
The history of women and money in the US.
Where gender discrimination still exists today.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

Read the transcript

Hey everyone, how are you all doing? I’ve gotten a lot of amazing feedback of the last few or several episodes that I have done that were all interviews. You got to meet one of my best friends, Karen. You got to meet my first coach. And you got to meet Judith, an amazing style coach. I actually got a lot of really great feedback about that and I’m actually super excited because I’m going to have her come in and coach the women inside my program Live Wealthy.

Okay, I have a special series of episodes lined up for you this month. This episode is coming out in March and March is Women’s History Month. Now, one of the things that I’m really, I guess, passionate about in terms of teaching women and coaching them about money is to really show them that how we are socialized around, not just money, but a lot of things.

There are specific things that women believe and feel about themselves that are not an accident. Ultimately it comes down to internalized patriarchy, and actually I have an episode coming up with a feminist coach that I study with where we’re going to sort of talk more about the patriarchy and the effects of it because as a woman growing up, and I went to an all-women’s college, I don’t think I really learned about that or really knew or understood. And also I didn’t understand the impact of that on my life.

So I think it’s really important for all of you to understand how that socialization falls into money. Now, there’s a sordid history when it comes to women and money. I think most of us know that’s the case because we know that women didn’t have certain rights until very recently, and as we all know some of them are being taken away or trying to be taken away.

So, I wanted to honor this month and also honor the women that have come before us that have literally fought so that we could be able to do what we do today.

So I did a series of this a few years ago and so I am reprising them with some new information, obviously. And I hope you learn something new and I hope it gives you food for thought on where you are today. And I think it’s also a great opportunity to kind of pause and really appreciate what you have and appreciate the freedom that we have even though it may not seem like it. So here’s the episode.

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Hey everyone, so it’s March. And did you know that March is Women’s History Month? And so what I thought I would do for the next few episodes is to give you an overview of the history of women and money. It is absolutely fascinating.

And I’ve been learning a lot about the history of women in general, including money, because right now I’m actually in a continuing coach education program. It’s called the Advanced Certification in Feminist Coaching.

And so, I actually attended an all-women’s college. I went to Barnard College in New York City. And also, as a woman, I am very interested and invested in knowing this history. And knowing this history just explains so much why we, as women, are socialized, or have been socialized with regard to money and all the things.

So, obviously, I love to talk about money. And so, I want to talk about the history of women and money. So, today, I’m going to specifically go over the history in terms of important dates and milestones, legally in terms of our financial rights, both in ancient history and then I’ll bring us up to date in the US.

And the reason why I think it’s really important for you to be familiar with this history is it gives you a lot of context to why most women have money issues. Because it’s not an accident. There is a reason – many reasons – why so many of us have limiting beliefs when it comes to money.

So, obviously, we are in the modern time. It’s 2021, I live just outside of New York City. I pretty much grew up in the New York City area, so I’ve always lived in an area where people tend to be more liberal and embrace equality. But I know that is not the case in all of the US. And obviously it’s not fully the case where I live right now.

And did you know that it was only relatively recently where we women had full financial legal rights? You know, I don’t think any of us right now even give much thought about opening an account in our name, taking out a loan, or buying property.

But there was a time not too long ago where we could not do that. And so, that’s what I want to go over today, going over the actual history, the facts, et cetera. And in the next episode next week, I’m going to talk more about the socialization of women and money in the US, which was super-fun to research, by the way.

Okay, so let’s talk about some ancient history when it comes to women and money. Okay, first I have to say I am not a history person, I never was. And I will just say, growing up, it was probably my least favorite subject. So, I had to do a little research to make sure I didn’t give you wrong information in terms of, for example, what does ancient history mean? Because I wasn’t really sure what that meant.

And so, maybe some of you are also in that same boat. Maybe not. Maybe you loved learning history. I did not. So, I learned that ancient history actually means between 3000 BC to about 500 AD. So, this is obviously not the US history because the US was not around in ancient history. But I wanted to give you a little bit of background.

So, here’s what I found. In Ancient Egypt, women and men actually had equal financial rights. I thought that was pretty cool. Meaning that women could enter into contracts in their own name. They could go to court. They could be sued, et cetera. Now, in contrast, in Ancient Greece, women were not allowed to inherit property or take a case to court unless a male guardian was in charge.

Meanwhile, in Ancient Rome, Roman women were allowed to divorce. They were allowed to own and inherit property. What I also found interesting about Ancient Rome is that even though women could get divorced, the husband, apparently, got to keep the children legally.

And then let’s go to Ancient Hinduism, around 1500 BC. So, women were able to own property before marriage, but divorce wasn’t allowed. And the inheritance laws favored male family members. Not too surprising, I guess.

Okay, let’s fast forward to the middle ages, which by the way is the fifth to late-15th century. I also found that the middle ages is also sometimes referred to as pre-modern Europe.

So, in Europe in the 800s, women were allowed to own property before and after marriage. How progressive, I guess. Then in England, around 1100, something called English Common Law came into law, basically. And I learned a new word. It’s called coverture. I’m probably pronouncing it wrong, but it’s C-O-V-E-R-T-U-R-E

Coverture basically is the belief that married men and women become one financial entity. Let me repeat that again. Coverture refers to the belief that once you’re married – and we’re talking traditionally, men and women – you became one. That kind of still holds today a little bit in the US, right?

Anyway, because you became one entity when you got married, married women could not own property. What I found super-interesting is that if you weren’t married, whether it’s because you never got married or you became a widow, then you could enjoy those financial rights like owning property, et cetera.

And from my reading – and let’s just be real. When I say reading, I mean Google research – coverture is sort of what started this idea that women are basically the property of their husbands.

And what I found interesting is that many countries basically had to deal with whether women could own property by themselves. And the term I came across was something called separate economy, which is the ability to basically earn their own money, keep their own money, and spend it independent of their husband. I mean, the thought of not being able to do that now might seem crazy to us, but this was kind of the norm in the rest of the world for a very long time.

Now, right before the US became the US in 1776, I found that in 1771, New York became the first US state to require a woman’s consent if her husband tried to sell property that she’d brought to the marriage.

All right, so now I’m going to focus on the history of women and money in the United States as we know it, more or less. So, let’s fast forward to the 1800s. So, in 1839, Mississippi was actually the first state to allow women to own property in their own name. Which means that everywhere else and up until that time, women could not own property in their own names.

Remember that term I mentioned before, separate economy? Well in 1844 in Maine, married women were the first married women in the US to basically win the right to have separate economy. Meaning that they could earn their own money, keep their own money, and spend it without permission from their spouse.

Now, some of the other historical facts that I want to go over might not seem directly related to money, but they really are. For example, I found that in 1845, that was when women could first file patents. And this was in New York.

And the reason why this is important with regard to the history of women and money is because, I guess, if a woman could not file a patent, that means that’s he couldn’t retain the rights to her work or make money off of it. And that also explains why up until 1845, at least in the US, that’s why most of the history is, well, male dominated.

Well, the good news is that in 1848 through about 1900, so about a 50-year span, finally states started to come around in terms of allowing married women to basically have separate economy, to not be automatically liable for their husband’s debt, that she could basically do her own thing, that she could actually inherit property, she could file a lawsuit on her behalf.

Basically, starting in 1848 through 1900 all the states started to basically recognize separate economy for women. And let me just pause here and say that it’s crazy to me to even be reading that this had to be law, meaning that we actually had to win the right to do the things we take for granted today.

So, in 1862 there was the US Homestead Act, which made it easier for single, widowed, and divorced women, basically unmarried women to basically own land in their own names. Remember I said that whole separate economy thing. So, while that was happening between 1848 and 1900, in 1862, California was a state that allowed women to retain full control of their money.

And then, I also found that in 1862 was when the San Francisco Savings Union, a bank, approved a loan to a woman. So, I’m not 100% sure, but what I’m reading sounds like before then women couldn’t get loans. Which is kind of crazy.

And so now I want to highlight a few sort of notable women that came up in my Google research. So, the first woman I wanted to highlight is someone named Myra Colby Bradwell.

So, she was a lawyer in Illinois. And even though Illinois allowed women to actually work and do whatever they wanted – how progressive – the Illinois bar refused to admit her. And this case went to the Supreme Court. And unfortunately, the Supreme Court basically said, “Well, the states don’t really have to grant a law license to a married woman if they don’t want to.”

The next lady I want you all to be aware of is someone named Sarah Breedlove. Now, she’s more well-known as Madam C.J. Walker. But she was born Sarah Breedlove.

Now, she is recorded as the first female self-made millionaire in America according to the Guinness Book of World Records. Now, I’m going to put a little asterisk here only because it says, “We don’t really know for sure if that’s true. But she’s the first well-documented self-made millionaire.”

And so, what I wanted to highlight about Sarah Breedlove is two things. One is that she was born right after Black Americans were “free” from slavery. Meaning that her parents were slaves and I believe her elder siblings were as well.

And so, I just loved reading about her story to see that no matter where you came from, no matter who you were born into or what you were born into, that you can still become rich.

And I just want to note that the self-made millionaire record that she holds, this was in the 1900s, meaning that that $1 million is actually worth, in today’s money, more like $15 million. So, we’re talking about a lot of money.

Around the same time that Sarah Breedlove was making money, we have a few other women who were doing the same thing. And so, the two names I came across were Mary Gage and Hetty Green. And so, Mary Gage was apparently the first woman who opened a stock exchange specifically for women who wanted to use their own money.

Remember, women couldn’t really do that in the recent past when Mary Gage was alive. And then Hetty Green, who apparently has the nickname of the Witch of Wall Street, her net worth was around 100 to 200 million, or the equivalent of basically two to four billion in today’s money, which probably means she was the richest woman in the world at that time.

And so, one of the claims to notoriety or fame or whatever you want to call it for Hetty Green is that she apparently was a cheapskate. That was the word I saw describing her because she apparently owned one dress and only wore the one dress and she only washed it when it got ratty. And she basically didn’t spend her money.

All right, now we’re going to fast forward and I’m going to get you up to speed with modern times. Did you know that women could not necessarily open a bank account in her own name in all states until about 1960? That’s really not that long ago.

And 1972 was when we had the first female CEO of a Fortune 500 company, and that is Catherine Graham. Now, the next few laws I’m going to talk about were shocking for me to find out.

So, the equal credit opportunity act was passed in 1974. Now, up until 1974, until this law became enacted, banks apparently required unmarried women to bring a man with them to cosign a credit application, regardless of their income.

And then in 1978 it became illegal for women to be dismissed from their jobs for becoming pregnant, this is the pregnancy discrimination act. And even though this is law, we all know that’s not really true, especially in medicine.

And it wasn’t until 1981 where women were finally basically given, I wouldn’t even say equal rights. But up until 1981 husbands could basically do big financial decisions without getting permission from their wife. For example, if a married couple jointly owned property, the husband couldn’t just go out and get a second mortgage without his wife’s permission.

So, I guess before that, if you owned property with your spouse, your husband could go and basically take out money, refinance, take a HELOC without you knowing. Now, we all know that that still happens, but at least legally they’re not supposed to do that.

Akin to that pregnancy discrimination act law that was passed in 1978, in 1993 – now, I was born in 1977, so now we’re getting to the time when I was alive, although younger. So, 1993 is when the family and medical leave act becomes law in the US, we also call it mostly FMLA.

And people get really confused by what FMLA means. But I’ll just say real briefly, all FMLA means is that you can take 12 weeks off from work and still keep your job. It’s nothing to do with whether you’re paid for it or not. So, it’s just job guarantee for taking time off. Now, many people think of it as taking time off to have a baby. But it could be to take care of a sick family member as well, among other things.

All right, so now we’re going to be wrapping up. But one more thing I want to talk about is someone named Lilly Ledbetter. So, Lilly Ledbetter worked for Goodyear. And she found out, after working there for decades, that what she was paid was significantly lower than her male counterparts at the same level of seniority.

Now, we’re talking about gender wage discrimination, right? And so, in 2007 the Supreme Court basically ruled that a woman couldn’t bring a lawsuit for pay discrimination if more than 180 days had passed. Thankfully, in 2009, President Obama sort of reversed that law, which basically means that people can sue companies for pay discrimination even if more than six months have passed.

And so, I kind of skipped over some of the pay discrimination laws that came into place, but what I find so interesting is that it is technically illegal for a woman and a man to have different pay. But at least in medicine – that’s the industry I know – that’s just not true. I know so many female physicians who find out that they’re not getting paid the same as a male for the same job.

I’m not talking about RVUs and things like that, because obviously those are things that can affect your pay. But I’m talking about a salary job or a base salary. It is illegal. And what I find interesting – I’m going off on a tangent here. But I know that for many physician or medical jobs, there’s like a gag clause where you can’t even talk about what you get paid. And I’ve actually read that that might be illegal. But I definitely signed a contract where I basically had to agree with that. And I think that should be illegal, if it’s not already.

So, that’s the conclusion of my little mini history of women and money starting from ancient history, bringing you up to speed to current-day United States. And even though we technically have laws in place to prevent gender money discrimination, we all know that’s not quite true. It hasn’t fully propagated to what actually happens.

And because many of these laws are really recent, meaning that even though you may be listening and you were born after 1980 or 1990, our parents were born in a time where women did not have full financial rights, and our grandparents. And so, I think you can hopefully see that knowing this history will hopefully shed some light as to why women are socialized to believe that we are not good with money, which is the topic of next week’s episode. I cannot wait for you to hear what I’m going to discuss then.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | How to Use Style to Create Your Luxe Life with Judith Gaton

150: How to Use Style to Create Your Luxe Life with Judith Gaton

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Is shopping for clothes something you absolutely dread doing? Is your style something you give much time and attention to? Do you ever wonder why you should even care or be interested in your personal style?

If any of these questions resonate with you, you are going to love today’s episode. Master Certified life and style coach Judith Gaton is on the show, and she’s here to demystify what style means and why you should care about your personal style. Judith completely transformed my mindset around my style when I hired her, and I know she’s going to blow your mind too.

Listen in this week to hear why style matters, especially if you are in the process of creating wealth and up-leveling your life. Judith is sharing her top tips and insights on creating a luxe life and feeling like a million dollars, why style is a beautiful conduit to your heart and mind, and how it gives you early access to your future vision of yourself.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

The misconceptions many people have about style and having a personal stylist.
4 types of people who are resistant to hiring a personal stylist.
Judith’s insights on my outfit formula.
Why style matters.
The difference between style and fashion.
How many women tend to tolerate bodily discomfort in the clothes they wear.
Judith’s tips on all things undergarments.
How style goes hand-in-hand with wealth creation.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

Follow me on Instagram
Judith Gaton: Website | Instagram | Podcast
Check out Judith’s community, Modern Charm School!
Rent the Runway
Nordstrom Trunk Club
Fabled scrubs
FIGs scrubs
Medelita
Clean Magic Eraser

Read the transcript

Hey everyone, I hope you are doing fabulously. I am so excited for you all to listen to this conversation with Judith Gaton, she is a style coach. And this was such an amazing and fun conversation. I know you’re going to love this episode because we talk about something that a lot of us don’t think much about or have given really any time and attention to style.

And she does a great job demystifying what style is and what it means and why you should care. And you’re going to learn a lot about just certain things that you may have not thought about. Anyway, I know you’re going to love it, and so let’s get started.

Bonnie: All right, Judith, I am super excited to be chatting with you.

Judith: Ditto.

Bonnie: So, I’m sure many of my listeners don’t know who you are, so introduce your awesome self.

Judith: Yeah, I’m Judith Gaton. I am a master certified coach and a personal stylist. I’m a former lawyer, I’m no longer in practice. But when I was in practice I was the managing partner of my law firm. And, yeah, I think that’s it’s in a nutshell. That’s the quick cliff notes. If you want more, let me know.

Bonnie: I know people are probably thinking, “Why is a style coach on a podcast where we predominantly talk about money?” Of course, I talk about some other things, but I have worked with Judith and I never thought I would work with a stylist. To me, stylists were for like really rich people or, I don’t know. You probably kind of know what all the preconceived notions about stylists are, right?

Judith: Yeah, I mean, that’s one of them. That it’s like for fancy people, other people.

Bonnie: Well I am fancy.

Judith: Yeah. Well, like rich people, right? So sometimes rich and fancy become synonymous, they’re not actually the same thing. And there’s this idea that you have to have reached some sort of certain socioeconomic status in order to justify having a stylist, or in order to justify being able to even work on the style stuff. It’s like, you have to have arrived at some place before your given entry into the world of style, which I think is really funny.

But I think some version of that shows up a lot for my clients because I think, like your clients, they’re smart cookies. So most of their formative years were spent getting a degree or building their career or building businesses. So by the time they arrive to a place where they meet you and I, they’re like, “Okay, I’m ready for more.”

And this sort of becomes this funny thing that’s like, “Well, I would love to do that.” And it’s like, well, you can. And they don’t realize the moment when they could because they’ve been telling themselves they can’t for years and years and years. It’s really fun to watch.

Bonnie: As you were talking I was thinking about the rise of all these, what would you call it, like curated clothing things? Because I did something like that, not the curated boxes, not like Stitch Fix. I did like the Rent the Runway stuff, I did like the cheaper version of that. It was called Le Tote or something like that. Now I do Rent the Runway, like monthly membership.

But it just seems like there’s an explosion of accessible style. Is that the best way to put it? Like Trunk Club. I’ve done Trunk Club where you “get a stylist.” Still, it was very different than my experience with you. But what are your thoughts on that?

Judith: Yeah, I mean, I see the need for it because I think the constant refrain I hear is I hate shopping, or I effing hate shopping with a passion. Like the stories and the terrible lighting. And then the pandemic and everybody had to shop online, and then the hassle of that and they didn’t even know where to shop. And let’s say you’re in a petite size body, a plus sized body, a tall body, a body of any kind, you probably have had some issues finding clothing that fits you.

So I understand at a base level why those things exist, and I kind of appreciate them for what they are. If you really hate shopping and you feel like you’re in a pinch, that might be a great place to start.

I think the problem becomes when you stop advocating for yourself with your “stylist” and you don’t tell them what you actually like or what you hate. So you keep getting more of the same stuff and then it sits in a corner and it becomes like a shame pile and you spent all this money and blah, blah, blah. So they have a little bit of utility, I think, if you use them well. That will be my only caveat.

Bonnie: Okay, well I can just speak to that because remember when you and I started working together and I showed you some like pricey pieces from one of those things and I literally never put them on. And I think they still had their tags on.

Judith: Yeah, you had some beautiful pieces but they weren’t your jam. That’s not how you actually show up in the world. You have like an outfit formula that I think of when I think of you, and it was not any of those clothes. It was kind of interesting.

Bonnie: Oh, tell me, what’s that outfit formula?

Judith: Yeah, so when I think of you, I think of a really beautiful print dress. And I think of a really cute jacket of some kind, like a jean jacket in different colors or textures over a really fabulous print dress. That’s how I see you in my mind. Like some of these were just like trousers and these really beautiful blouses. And they were nice, they were totally nice, but they didn’t match what you actually wore every day.

Bonnie: So you’re saying I should sell them? Or give them to someone who wants them?

Judith: You can pass them along. Certainly I think they could be released into the wild.

Bonnie: Who has time to sell? I don’t have time to shop, I definitely don’t have time to sell. Okay, going back to what you said even before, I feel like we can go on so many tangents.

Judith: Oh, yes.

Bonnie: One of the things I also thought of as you were talking about why people don’t hire stylists is I also wonder if people are thinking, “Who am I to even work with a stylist?” It’s almost like they have negative thoughts about, I don’t know if it’s prioritizing themselves. I think that’s what it is, but do you understand what I’m trying to say?

Judith: Yeah, so I have what I call like four leading ladies that I teach, just to kind of get an idea of where people’s hearts and minds are and this is typically how I see it show up. We have on the one hand, we call her Catherine. And top of her game, kills it at work, crushes it at work, but has gotten in sort of a style rut.

Like she wears a uniform, so to speak, and she doesn’t really feel like her outsides match how she feels about herself on the inside. So when she comes to working on this stuff, it’s almost like, am I allowed to care about this? Because it seems almost silly and frivolous.

Bonnie: Yes, that’s exactly what. This is what you do, so obviously you can say it better than I did. That’s exactly what I was thinking.

Judith: Probably 75% of my clientele are Catherines. A lot of them are Catherine. And then because we have our work from home crowd I see another version of this where like nobody sees me but me, so why does it matter?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Judith: And during the pandemic it was like, but you see you, and trying to convince a whole group of women like, but you see you. You matter. How you feel when you’re washing your hands at two o’clock on a Tuesday and you catch a glimpse of yourself in the mirror and you’re thinking, “Oh my gosh, did I walk around looking like that all day?” Yeah, it actually really does matter.

And then we have a big group of doctors in my community and, obviously, you as well, of course, coming out of the pandemic into real clothes. And I’ll put that in air quotes, again, has been interesting because a lot of their scrubs stopped fitting. So they just wore whatever the hospital provided. So they didn’t even purchase them at some point. Or they got really, really ratty, or that’s all they bought, that’s all their investment in clothing was.

And now we’re inviting them to care about their style again, and they feel like they just survived this big ordeal. Kind of a hard sell. So that’s typically where I meet the ladies I serve on this journey.

Bonnie: Oh my God, you just described that so beautifully. You know, I don’t practice anymore but I’m sure you know this because this is what you do, but now there’s all these fancy scrub companies that have come out to make it a little bit nicer looking. And the one that comes to mind that I would have tried out if I was practicing is, I believe it’s called Fabled. Have you heard of that brand?

Judith: Yes, beautiful.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Judith: They’re beautiful.

Bonnie: Aren’t they beautiful? Yeah. So I know the person who started it because she’s a physician entrepreneur. I don’t know all of them, but I know a lot of them. And, yeah, I remember telling her if I was still practicing I would love to try them. I did own Figs. And those are at least better than regular scrubs.

Judith: And Figs has come out with new lines that look more like joggers, and they have really cute tops that you could, like check it out, y’all. They’re really cute. The scrub game has definitely been up-leveled in the last few years, and rightfully so. I mean, most of your day, most of your life is spent in them. You might as well have them be cute, and comfortable, and really nice fabrics. You all deserve that after what we’ve gone through.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Judith: I think that doctors definitely deserve nicer things. But I think a lot of them are like, okay, when I’m not doing clinic I could wear some real – And I love that, real. It’s all real clothes, love, I just want to offer that. But what about real clothes, real pants. I wore real pants today. That kind of thinking.

Bonnie: I also just want to add, and again, I’m sure you know, I’m sure my listeners know, I think before the fancy scrubs that started coming out, the first fancy white coat became really popular, Medelita. And so I did have a Medelita coat. It’s like a fitted, really nice fabric. Not like that cheap, not smooth fabric.

Judith: Some of them had sleeve cuffs for the shorter peeps. So they had just like a nicer fit through the arm. I know exactly what you’re talking about.

Bonnie: Yeah, I still have mine. The only problem is I have all these really nice Figs, one or maybe two really nice white coats, but my name is embroidered, so I can’t give them to people. Do you know, is there a way to get rid of that?

Judith: You could have a nice patch made and placed over your embroidered name, if they really wanted to use them.

Bonnie: Yeah, they could probably just buy their own.

Judith: Or they could buy their own.

Bonnie: But if anyone wants them, let me know.

Judith: Love that.

Bonnie: So let’s talk about one of the questions I had before I worked with you. I was like, well, why should anyone care about style? All the points you made make sense. Like pandemic, I’m on Zoom so who cares what I’m wearing below the waist, so to speak. So why should people care about it?

Judith: Well, I mean, and it’s interesting because I think this question comes up in different ways. So I’m going to answer it in different ways, but I’m going to answer it in the most common way that I get, like this just shouldn’t matter at all.

And I think it starts with our idea of what style is, versus what our idea of fashion is. And those are two different things. And it’s worth parsing out those things from each other and separating them because on the one hand, I like to call fashion like the circus parade. It’s like the fun thing with the elephants and the fringe and the glitter and the sequins and we get to watch it go by and be spectators.

And we can decide when we want to join in to the circus and maybe wear feathers and sequins, but we don’t have to. It’s not required. We get to really enjoy the spectacle of it. Whereas style, on the other hand, is so personal. It’s your thoughts and your feelings about yourself outwardly reflected. Meaning you have a thought, it makes emotions in your body, right? A neurochemical cascade because of how you’re thinking.

And then from there, you decide how you’re going to get dressed or not get dressed. You decide what you’re going to put on your body or not put on your body.

So if I wake up and I go to a closet full of clothing that does not fit my body, you’re like, “Damn it,” right? And that feeling of frustration or just grief or whatever emotion comes up for you. And then I go get dressed for the day and then I go get ready for the day.

Or if I’m feeling rushed, I think for most of my clients rushed is the emotion that drives most of the morning. Just get ready, just get ready, just get ready because they’ve spent too much time on their phone and taking care of their fur babies and their other humans. And then they’re going to get dressed and take care of themselves from that place.

So when we think of style as personal, like thoughts and feelings outwardly reflected, then it becomes super important because then we get to take a look at our clothing, look down in our underwear drawers and how we feel at two o’clock on a Tuesday when we glimpse ourselves in the mirror. Those thoughts that come up become really important. Like how did you choose to show up today? How did you choose to take care of yourself or not today, based on what you were thinking and feeling?

And when we approach style from that frame of reference, then it becomes very important because it’s just a conduit to your heart and mind and you taking better care of yourself.

Bonnie: Oh my God, I could just listen to you all day. You’re very eloquent. I’m sure that lawyer background helped. One of my, I’m sure it’s a limiting belief, Kara actually called me out. I just feel like I’m not good with words. But anywho, I just feel like you just speak so eloquently and it’s very clear what you’re trying to convey, is what I’m trying to say.

Judith: You conveyed that just fine, my friend. And I’ve talked with you many times and you’re good with the words. You’re all right. You’re all right.

Bonnie: All right, so I just loved everything you just said. And it’s funny, because it’s been a while since we’ve worked together and so there’s certain things I haven’t thought of in a while. And maybe it wasn’t you, but I remember, it probably was you, how the first thing you said is you look in the closet and you’re like, uh, or nothing fits. And how a lot of women, whatever their bodies are, we tend to buy things that are too small for us or keep those and then not buy clothes that actually fit us.

And then I forget who said it, I’m sure you could say it in a different way. It’s like almost a form of punishment to wear clothes that are too tight for you. Can you speak about that a little bit?

Judith: Yeah, I totally think it’s punishing. I mean, it’s so interesting. So I’ll do webinars and I’ll do like whole online classes, and one of the first things I say is like, we’re going to do a body scan collectively. I can’t see you, I let them know I can’t see them. If you’re listening right now, I want you to know we can’t see you, so I want you to do it with us too.

I ask them to do a body scan and I’m like top of your head down to the tips of your toes, are you uncomfortable? And it’s so interesting to me what comes up in the chat box. It’s like my bra is so tight. I’m like, “Take it off. I can’t see you.” My pants are digging into my belly. “Well unbutton them.” I’m really cold. I actually hear this a lot. A lot of women walk around really cold and they’re not just going to get an extra sweater or an extra jacket or a coat or something. I have lots of clients that are really cold. I’m like go get a sweater, woman.

And it’s interesting, those little changes. We had one client who took down her hair and she’s like, “Oh my God, my head has been hurting me all day and I didn’t realize I’ve been in a tight ponytail.” And this sounds kind of silly when I say it, but think about all the important work you have to do in the world, our darling listener, and yet you’re tolerating all these little discomforts all day long.

And it’s not like they go away, your brain starts to ignore them. They’re just sort of in the background of your head. It’s like that weird buzzy feeling. And when the buzz is turned off you feel this relief and you’re like, “Why was I walking around that way?”

And then guess what? You go to your closet and you do it again tomorrow. You wear shoes that don’t fit, underwear that’s too tight and is digging in your booty all day, pants that are too tight and you have to rub your belly. All of these things, right? Some of you are suddenly very hyper aware of what your body feels like.

But just because your brain has put that pain in the background doesn’t mean it’s not there. Let’s free up your brain space, because you got important stuff to do, by actually putting clothes on that are comfortable because it’s literally holding you hostage. It’s such a distraction.

Bonnie: Yeah, and I think I told you really upfront clothes have to be comfortable. And you were probably like, yeah. Yeah, if something is uncomfortable, I just can’t wear it. My tolerance for turtlenecks, I just have no tolerance for turtlenecks. You know, things are different for different people, right?

And I have a confession, Judith.

Judith: Tell me. Tell me everything.

Bonnie: My current underwear is not working for me.

Judith: We’ll get you sorted out.

Bonnie: Okay, offline you can help me.

Judith: I’ll take care of that, my friend.

Bonnie: That has been a pain point. I know it sounds so silly, but I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one on this call.

Judith: Definitely not the only one.

Bonnie: Yeah, it like bunches up. I remember buying even, I just feel silly saying this on a podcast, but whatever, this underwear is designed to be seamless. And I was really excited about it. And it just keeps moving on my butt. And I even emailed them and I was like, “This is horrible.” And then, of course, they were like, “Oh, well, sorry.” And you know, blah, blah, blah.

Judith: Part of the problem with seamless is you want to make sure it does have some elastic banding inside so it stays seated in place. Otherwise, because there’s no friction because it’s seamless, it slides around. And then by the end of the day you’re like really digging it out of your booty or out of your crotch because it’s completely bunched.

So you’re not alone in that with the seamless. Not all seamless panties are made equal. So you might want to find some, and I’ll give you some recommendations, but there are tons. You’re not the only one is all I had to say. I was going to go on a tangent and I realized. I will bring myself back, hi.

Bonnie: Well, let’s talk a bit about bras since we’re on the topic of undergarments because I feel like no bra was comfortable. And I tried a bunch and, you know, then they were like, oh, might be the wrong size. At least I feel like there’s more awareness around bra fit, right? Would you agree?

Judith: Yes. Oh, absolutely.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Judith: Yeah.

Bonnie: So this is kind of a funny story and I’m fine saying it in public. I actually have a little cyst, it’s under my left breast. And it got really angry at the end of last year. This is like a strange story.

Judith: Oh, that’s so painful.

Bonnie: This is like a whole story. It’s got a history, I should say. Anyway, it got so bad that I couldn’t wear a bra anymore. When it got better and I wore a really loose, loungy bra it got angry again. I have not worn a bra since like October. But you know what I did find is, because at first I was like, there’s got to be something. I can’t be the only one who has some issue in the bra laying area.

Judith: You’re absolutely not.

Bonnie: So I found these nipple covers.

Judith: Yeah.

Bonnie: And they’re amazing.

Judith: And you can find beautiful nipple covers, like in really pretty shapes. I know it sounds funny, but if you’re going to have a bra-free experience, I think let’s have the best bra-free experience ever. And you can find beautiful petals, they come in different skin tones now. They’re doing such a better job at that. And then even boob tape if you wanted to have some sort of cleavage effect.

Bonnie: I have that.

Judith: Like, you know, buying the tape in your particular color. I don’t recommend boob tape past certain sizes. I would say if you’re probably in the G cup, H cup range, they’re not as effective. But for smaller breasts I do think it’s effective. And for some of us, we actually don’t need to wear a bra, you really don’t have to, friends. So if you want to have a bra-free moment and you want to go commando, just make sure you have everything you need to have as good of an experience as you can if you want to free yourself from any undergarments.

Bonnie: I love it, you’re like free yourself, free your body. Yeah, because even that construct of needing a bra, I’m sure you’ve thought about it. And so Judith and I were in this advanced feminist coaching program and we were just learning all the patriarchal programming that we’re not even aware of. And I was just thinking, like are bras one of those constructs?

Have you thought about this?

Judith: Yeah, so I teach a bra workshop and one of the things is I give them like a tongue in cheek feminist history of bras because it’s freaking fascinating.

Bonnie: Give us the short story.

Judith: Yeah, I’ll give you the short story. So there were actually in ancient times, and even ancient Greece, there are frescoes with women wearing bras. And they are what they call proto-brassiere, and you can find pictures of them if you’d like to see. And they’re actually very close to what we have currently, which is very, very funny.

Where things get wacky is when we start to add boning to the bra structures and we create wiring systems. And instead of just supporting the natural breast, we decided to create shapes with the natural breasts and we decided to change the shape of the natural body. That’s where shit went weird.

And there’s a funny history during World War II where they were asking women not to have steel boning in their brassieres anymore because it was needed for the war effort. So we got a slight reprieve during the war times. Like handkerchief ribbon bras that were being made at home by hand. It’s a whole funny history.

We had a slight reprieve and then got into the 50s when suddenly we want to procreate again and women have these exaggerated breast shapes that are really globular, pointy, and things get weird again. So it’s just kind of interesting if we track world events with what we’re expecting of women’s breasts and how they should look. It just gets really interesting. And I won’t belabor it, but there’s a whole funny history here. There’s a feminist history here that’s worth looking at.

And whenever we talk about anything with regard to style I just want to add the caveat, you get to do what you want with your body, always. You don’t want to wear a bra, you don’t have to. You don’t want to wear panties, you don’t have to. You want conical pointy breasts that are 50s bullet shaped, I’m here for this and you get to do what you want with your body. Like, whatever, I just want you all to check in and decide whether you like your reasons or not. But you always get to decide what to do.

Bonnie: I just want to put a pin in something so that we get to it.

Judith: Okay.

Bonnie: I want to talk about the clients that I work with, they’re working on wealth creation of the money kind, and I wanted to talk about how we can use style to, help isn’t the word, but go hand in hand together. But my God, this topic is so fascinating.

I just was thinking, when we think of certain workplaces, so a physician’s workplace or anything where women have to be conservative, we’re kind of told how our bodies should look, right? There’s dress codes. And it seems like we’re turning backwards in some places, you know, they tell women what to wear. And so that’s also patriarchy, obviously. What can we do about that?

Judith: Oh, it’s so interesting. I think sometimes funnily playing within the rules, like when I was in court I was a litigator. So I was in court, I was in trial all the time. And I had some judges who were very staunch, even women had to wear coats. If I’m requiring a man to wear a jacket, women also have to wear a jacket. And I was like, okay, you want me to wear a jacket? I will wear a jacket. Like the frippery, like big bows. I’m like, I’m technically wearing a jacket, Your Honor, you wanted me to wear a jacket.

And it became like a funny thing. It was like what will Ms. Hoover wear to court today? Like it just became this funny thing. It’s like, I don’t mind playing within the rules if there’s decorum. There’s actually rules of court we have to abide by, just like you have health and safety codes, close toed shoes, different things we have to work within. But I don’t want that to ever inhibit anyone from expressing themselves because even within those rules, such as they are and such as they exist, we can play.

There’s so much fun stuff that we can do even within those realms. And I don’t want you ever to think like, oh, well, I’m only allowed to. It’s like, okay, if those are the parameters, let’s find where there’s places to play within those parameters.

Bonnie: Yeah, I love that. I love even just that phrase, we can still play with that.

Okay, so let’s talk about how to feel rich, because I think, you know, after we worked together I remember sending you a message saying that the way I was dressing myself had changed because I work on Zoom and no one sees me except for when I’m on Zoom. And so I do kind of try to plan the days I’m on Zoom in terms of my hair, makeup, whatever.

But I have been making, it’s not even an effort, but I feel different when I wear certain types of clothes. And I remember messaging you and saying, “I feel like a million bucks because of the way I’m dressing now.” So that’s what I want us to talk about. Like accessing that and why style helps facilitate that.

Judith: And I love that, like I feel like a million bucks because here’s the fun thing y’all, everyone’s million bucks is going to look very different, right? So my million bucks is going to look different than Bonnie’s million bucks. And all of us are going to show up differently because our version of the luxe life in our head and what our million dollar selves, our billion dollar selves looks like, it’s just going to be different because style is personal.

So I want you to think outside of the paradigm of millionaires look this particular way or billionaires look this particular way, because when you actually meet those folks in real life they all look very, very different. One of the funny things, I remember working at Disneyland when I was younger, I was in college. And one of the things that we were trained on is never assume, based on how people are dressed, who they are or what their status is.

And I remember that was so impressed upon me because we’d have people who were royalty visiting, we’d have people who were heads of state, we’d have people who were famous baseball players or musicians. And these are real life examples I’m giving you, and they would come with their kids and their family. They’re in holy sweats, their kid vomited on them, like they’re living real normal life and they are definitely very, very wealthy. We can’t ever assume, right?

So I also just want you to just play, like what does your luxe life look like? And then what clothing is going to best support your version of a luxe life? And that’s just going to be so different for each of us. Mine includes a very fabulous hat wardrobe, that is like a mainstay. And there’s going to be a hat closet eventually, like, oh my gosh, all the things, right?

For some of you, your handbag game is going to be next level, otherworldly. I want you to start to play with that idea, like what does my luxe life look like? And then what clothing will support that lifestyle?

Bonnie: My wheels are turning. I don’t think I ever really thought about that, Judith. Definitely there’s going to be handbags, there’s going to be no hats. I feel like my hair game is pretty good. I’m just thinking of the things that are important to me. You know what I mean?

Judith: Yeah.

Bonnie: Shoes.

Judith: And there’s some ways that you’re already living your luxe life, that’s a cool thing to pause on too.

Bonnie: I want to do this exercise after, I want to sit down and really think about this. I don’t think I’ve actually really, I think I had this almost like, just like you were saying, like this idea of how I should dress. And I’m sure you’ve seen this, you know, we’re both certified by the same coaching school, I feel like sometimes you feel a little pressure to dress a certain way.

Judith: Like in any culture, right? So cultures get created just where humans gather. So whether that’s a culture of your work environment and everyone’s wearing Figs, so then you have to wear Figs, too, right? Or the culture of a work environment where everyone wears navy blue suits, or pinstripe suits, or whatever the hell is happening in the culture where the humans that you gather with gather, it’s natural that that occurs.

But you always get a beautiful moment here, and we’re offering and inviting you into a pause to say like, do I actually want to show up that way? And if I envision my luxe life, does that even factor in? Does it even make sense for me?

Bonnie: Yeah, this is so good. I’ve got so much to think about now. And actually, we’ve already talked offline about you guest coaching in my program because I know they would just love this if they’re not already hearing about this. Because I think sometimes it’s really easy to focus on just certain things like, yeah, of course, I want more money. Then everyone is different about what their rich life looks like, right?

For me, it’s beautiful, luxury, tropical vacations, mostly in Hawaii. That’s like my favorite place. Flying first class. And I do fly first class a lot right now, but right now, it’s not accessible as like – I have to think about it before I book the flight is what I’m trying to say. I can’t wait to get to the point where I won’t even care what the price is, right? But I don’t think I ever really thought about what that version of me actually wears.

Actually, here’s a fun little story because I do future self-visualizations for me and my clients. And I did have a, she had the same hair by the way, so that’s good. But she had earrings on and I’ve had earrings before, but my ears have always closed up. Or like they’ve closed up because I didn’t wear earrings because I found them kind of annoying.

Judith: Okay.

Bonnie: Like I had this idea that I want earrings. So since I had that vision I was like, oh, I better get my ears re-pierced, so I did. And then the left ear, you guys can’t see the video. It’s kind of hard to see, Judith, but look, you see there’s an earring in my right ear.

Judith: Okay.

Bonnie: There’s no earring here because it got infected last week.

Judith: Of course, because you’re still human.

Bonnie: I was like, is this a sign?

Judith: Even our future selves are still humans that get ear infections. Like, hi, welcome to being human.

Bonnie: But I’m still in the period where it’s probably closed up because, anyway, so I just thought like, is this a sign? Anyway, whatever.

Judith: But I love that you’re playing with it. So I think, let’s even play this out further. So let’s imagine you get to a place where you’re just booking Hawaii, not a care in the world. Like are you the kind of woman who has a change of clothes for the plane?

Do you wear pajamas on the plane? And do you change your clothes beforehand and then you change your clothes right before landing? Do we have plain like yummy slippers that we bring? Like it gets fun when we start to think of our version of a luxe life.

Bonnie: My mind is being blown. Actually, I think right now, because I’m sure you and I both travel a lot for our work. And I do have a plane outfit, it’s basically like those Vuori joggers, I actually wear them every day pretty much. I’m wearing them right now. And I have like a cute one, it’s pink and I have this pink top that I wear and my sneakers that you helped me pick out actually. The white sneakers with like rose gold.

Judith: I remember those sneakers, I was just going to ask you.

Bonnie: Yeah, I love them. They’re getting, I need to wash them. They’re getting a little dirty but those are like my go-to shoes now.

Judith: Mr. Clean Magic Eraser.

Bonnie: Good to know. I was thinking I would have to wash them in my sink. Okay, so I have had this idea like, I want to wear nicer travel clothes. I don’t see myself dressing in my fancy-ish clothes. But I was like, there’s got to be like a really nice, kind of like scrubs, right? There’s got to be a version of comfortable travel wear that doesn’t look like sweatpants. You know what I mean?

Judith: Yeah, and you get to decide, like you get to go on the hunt for that and create outfits that support that vision in your head, right? Because if you’re at your most luxurious and you’re most comfortable, then what do we get you to support that vision in your head?

Bonnie: It also has good underwear that doesn’t bunch up.

Judith: Exactly. So there’s good panties, there’s comfy outfits, but it’s still a little elevated polish. Maybe there’s a cashmere pashmina that you can wrap yourself in on the plane. Like there are so many places to play here. And that’s your vision, right? Someone else’s vision might look different.

Bonnie: Thank you for all these ideas I’m getting, Judith.

Judith: You’re welcome.

Bonnie: Okay, part of me is like I need to maybe hire you again. I feel like I’ve gone backwards and I’m wearing joggers. There’s nothing wrong with the joggers though. Even just me saying it, it’s like why am I making it a problem, right?

Judith: Not a problem. You get to keep your stretchy pants. You get to keep your comfy pants. This idea that they’re not real pants is just simply not true and I don’t think it’s helpful for any of us to think of it that way. We just want to make sure that they’re the best quality that you can afford, and that they’re the best fit that you can afford and to get for yourself. And you will work at your best level when your body is actually physically comfortable.

And that doesn’t mean that your version of stylish and comfort are not synonymous, they’re totally synonymous. But we get to look at what that looks like for each individual person. And if stretchy pants are part of your game and joggers are part of your game, let’s just find you the best damn joggers we can.

Bonnie: Yeah, I feel like they’re even getting better. Like Vuori kind of like, it’s hard to explain. Just like a fancier version, I guess, is the best way to say it.

Judith: Yeah, I just got some Cozy Earth joggers for Christmas and they’re modal cotton. They’re like butter. I’m like, I’m just going to shave my legs just so I can put these pants on. You know that fresh feeling, I know everyone knows exactly what that sensation is. Like, oh, I’m just going to shave just for them. No, not for my husband, not for anybody else, not even for me, for the pants. I’m going to shave my legs for the pants.

Bonnie: Oh my God. So it’s funny, I actually, and maybe I bought the Cozy Earth joggers a few years ago, so I’m sure they’ve been updated. But I stopped wearing them because the band just felt, I think it was too tight. I probably just bought the wrong size. So they’re somewhere collecting dust, I don’t even know where.

Judith: They’re in the ether somewhere.

Bonnie: They’re in the ether, they’re somewhere in my closet. But we have the Cozy Earth sheets and those are super soft. I love them. Matt doesn’t like them that much, which is bizarre to me.

Anyway, I want to talk still a little bit more about feeling like a million bucks. Like think of what that rich version of themselves dresses like, is that the way they should think about it.

Judith: Yeah, reverse engineer it. How do you spend your day when you are living your luxe life? Like just kind of journal snapshots. So we’re going to break this down practically into an exercise for you all.

I want you to imagine you woke up in the morning, walk us through like a movie in the day in the life of you as your millionaire self, your billionaire self, whatever works for you. And I want you to just record, what are the activities you imagine yourself doing?

For some of you, you are going to hit that gym. Or maybe the personal trainer comes to you. Okay, bougie, I love it. But you get to decide like, well, how am I going to show up for that training session? Like what clothes would I need for that? And what do I imagine the best sneakers are for that? Maybe some of you are going to become sneaker heads, I don’t know.

And then if you have meetings that day and you meet with other humans to go over your assets and all your holdings and your portfolio, because you’re that person now, what handbag are you carrying? Maybe you don’t carry a handbag. Maybe you have somebody who carries your shit for you. Okay, I love it, right? But then what outfit are you wearing? You get to get in the nitty gritty details of this.

And some of you, it might have cued an eye roll and your internal like, ugh, is coming up. Here’s why I’m telling you this, this is why it’s super important. We’re normalizing this for you. If you really want to become the woman who has a net worth of X amount, it has to become so normal. And you have to start to recognize the little glimpses of her where she’s already here, so when you get there you don’t have an identity crisis. You don’t self-sabotage and do any weird stuff that humans do when they’ve achieved a goal.

Instead it’s just become so normal to you because you’ve gone over it in your head so many times. And you want to get in the details of it, and I think style is a beautiful way to get into the details of it and make this real to you. What do you imagine the fabric textures being?

I imagine, one of my ideas of a luxe life is I’m going to rent a house in Provence to live with my best friend for a month out of the year. And she’s going to bring her kids and our nannies. Neither one of us has children or nannies at this point, but it’s part of the vision so we go with it, right?

The nannies are coming, the kids are coming and we’re in Provence. I have pictured in detail the sun hat, the bathing suit, the wrap I’m going to wear when I get out of the pool, the kinds of Roman towels we’re going to have, because there’s a certain type of Roman towel that I really love. Like all of those little details that sound like, oh my gosh.

But think of how normal, I’ve lived at that house in Provence already a gazillion times. By the time it occurs, it’ll be so normal for my body that I’ve kind of mitigated the idea that there’s going to be some sort of self-sabotage, which I’m prone to do and which a lot of high achievers are prone to doing. So that’s why it’s so important to get in the details of it.

Bonnie: Oh my God, this is so good. Now I’m thinking about the types of things that I would bring or just, yeah, I love it. I need to think about this. I’m going to have to think really hard about this after our call now.

Okay. Is there anything that we haven’t said that you think peeps should know?

Judith: No, I think we’ve given them, like and mind blowing, go play with the exercise. And if you’re in Bonnie’s community, go get some coaching on whatever comes up for you in your visioning exercise. This is powerful stuff and it’s such a fun place to play.

Even if you’re driving while listening to this or we’re in the background of you working, go take this to a piece of paper at some point later on in the day. It’s so good to get this out of your brain and heart and to kind of look at it objectively and just bask in like the fun that this really could be as you work towards paying off debt or whatever it is you have to do to get to your version of a luxe life.

Bonnie: Yeah, I’m so excited about this. Okay, you’re definitely going to come inside my program and coach because I think we don’t spend time, and this is everyone, not just my clients. We don’t spend time living that future life and vision that we have. And style gives us early access almost to that.

Judith: Yes.

Bonnie: Oh my God, I love that. My mind has been blown just like talking shop with you, because it’s different when you’re like a client, you know what I mean?

Judith: Oh yeah, absolutely. And I’m going to steal that line, it gives you early access. Oh, I love that. Thank you for that. That was like a little gem, I’m going to keep it in my pocket. Thank you. Thank you.

Bonnie: Awesome. Well, this was such an amazing conversation. I’m already like, people can’t see the video, but I’m like, whoa. Anyway, okay, Judith, how can people find you?

Judith: Yeah, you can listen to my podcast. If you’re listening to a podcast, chances are you like podcasts, so you can check me out at Style Masterclass Podcast with Miss J. Or you can find out more about what we do in my community, it’s called Modern Charm School, and you just go to judithgaton.com/moderncharmschool.

Bonnie: Can you spell out the website?

Judith: Yeah. So J-U-D-I-T-H-G-A-T-O-N forward slash modern charm school, all one word.

Bonnie: Awesome. And we’ll link it in the show notes as well. All right, thank you so much for being here, this was a delight.

Judith: Thank you. Thank you for having me.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 2)

149: Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 2)

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Welcome back for part two of my conversation with my first coach and now good friend Sunny Smith. In this part, we get to the good stuff about how I found coaching when I needed it most, how I was severely limiting myself because of my thoughts about money, and how coaching changed everything about my future.

If you’re stuck in some unhelpful limiting beliefs around what you can and can’t do because of money, this episode is for you. We always have a choice, and it starts with questioning yourself and then being willing to take that first courageous step toward the life you truly want.

Tune in this week to discover the reality of going from a physician to an entrepreneur. We’re discussing our own journeys through this transition, why other people aren’t going to like it when you start down this path, but nevertheless it’s your ticket to financial freedom.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why there will always be things you just believe you can’t do.
How I knew paying for coaching from Sunny was the best move I could possibly make.
The specific thoughts and circumstances I was struggling with when I originally found coaching and became a coach.
Why, as physicians, we struggle to see the other ways we can make big money.
How to see other people’s limitations in the advice they give you, and not buy into those limitations.
Why people will start to resent you when you start to replace your physician income as an entrepreneur.
Our experience of working on our mental health and how we maintain it.
How to take care of and invest your greatest asset: your mind.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Sunny Smith MD: Website | Instagram | Facebook | Podcast
Ep #148: Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 1)
Elizabeth Gilbert
Rest is Resistance by Tricia Hersey
Alex Hormozi

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Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Bonnie: Hey, everyone. Welcome to part two of my very long conversation with my first coach and now good friend, Sunny Smith. Basically, we just keep talking. I try to kind of cut the conversation at a decent point, but really we just keep talking about all the things. And this part, in particular, we really kind of go into as to how I felt where I was and how basically coaching really changed everything.

And even reflecting on the things, because she basically asked me to reflect on where I was, it really reconnected me with basically why I do what I do because I know what it’s like to feel stuck, to feel trapped.

And I know those are words that are thrown around a lot, but really thinking that we can’t do something because of money, it’s really a shitty place to be. And it just really reminded me that we always have a choice. And it starts with asking yourself certain questions and then really being willing to take that first courageous step.

And so that really is my hope for all of you, whether you’ve worked with me, whether you haven’t. And even if we’ve worked together, there’s always going to be things that you think you can’t do, and I really want you to just ask yourself, “But what if I can?” All right, here’s part two.

After Sunny coached me for free for quite a few months, then I paid her.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: We worked together for about a year.

Sunny: Yes, I made you a year-long offer. I said it was $27,000, and I like made this big elaborate offer, because you’re supposed to make someone an irresistible offer, and I knew Bonnie.

Bonnie: I think it was 20 pages.

Sunny: Yeah, so of course, I’m always excessively loquacious. Or beautifully, perfectly loquacious for me. And so I offered her what I thought she would really want. And I guaranteed her because, as a coach, I think it was important to me, especially my first year or two, especially if I was going to take on a business coaching client, right? Because I’m all about wellness, physician wellness, and that’s where all my focus was.

But if I was going to take an investment from her for her business, I said I guarantee you can 10X your money, or you can ask for it all back. And she did.

Bonnie: It’s so crazy that you would – I almost didn’t care about the guarantee.

Sunny: Right, you know what she said? I’m just going to offer. Do you know what she said? Because again, I went through all this stuff. Like I drove to Mexico because I lived in San Diego, I drove to Mexico across the border to go look at some big, beautiful resort community and like I was thinking, okay, I’ll do this, I’ll do this. What can I offer her that will make it amazing and make her feel amazing? And all of this stuff.

And she was like – I finally sent it because she was texting. She was like, “Are you going to send the offer? Are you going to send the offer?” Because she wanted to pay me and just get a link and just put in her credit card. And once I finally sent it, she was like, “You had me at coaching.”

That’s what you said. All you needed was the offer. And so that’s an example to any one of your people who are entrepreneurs or whatever. It’s like, just make the offer. People are waiting to work with you, right? So you said you had me at coaching.

You didn’t care what I said in the offer at all because you knew I believed in you, and you knew you could borrow my belief. That’s all you needed. That’s all you needed.

Bonnie: Yeah, and like, the guarantee was nice, but like, I didn’t care about it. I wouldn’t have been like, you know, if I didn’t 10X it, I wouldn’t have been like, “I need a refund.”

Sunny: No, but I felt for me at that point in my career that felt clean to me because I wanted to be sure I really did deliver what I thought I could deliver. And now I know that I deliver that, and I don’t make those kinds of guarantees anymore. It doesn’t even really make sense usually to do so. And it’s not even always good for the entrepreneur to do that, right?

Bonnie: Yeah, because sometimes they’ll have self-imposed pressure if they – I don’t know. Anyway.

Sunny: Just for so many reasons. It’s totally up to them. I can’t control how much someone makes.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: You know, it’s ridiculous to think I create someone else’s results. I can’t.

Bonnie: Yeah, because you can’t control their efforts, right?

Sunny: Right. But I was like, “I’ll teach you everything I know,” right? And I had made that much at that point, so I was like, “If I can do it, you can do it. Let’s do it together. Let’s go.” Because I started from nothing. I mean, I was me, and I was not nothing, but I didn’t have a podcast, I didn’t have an audience, I didn’t have anything that would be an asset for an entrepreneur except for my heart, right?

And so I just lead with my heart. And if I could lead with my heart and make that, I knew you could too. And so I wanted to help you to help women to start talking about money because I also had found out all kinds of stuff about money in my own career that, you know, I was like the lowest paid faculty member. And my new grads were being hired on at way more than I had because they didn’t run a free clinic, right?

They were billing patients.

And so when my advisees were like, “Should I work here for 225 or should I work here, you know, whatever the other number, I’m like, what the? Since when did family physician salaries go up so much? And why is mine so low? Why are new grads getting more than me?

Bonnie: Yeah, I remember that because I think you found out when we were working together.

Sunny: Yeah, exactly. And so that’s what I’m saying, it really was important to me that you helped women learn to talk about money. Because at that point, for the first time in my career, I saw the impact of what happens when you don’t talk about it. The disparities that are there.

Bonnie: Did you ever get the raise? I don’t remember.

Sunny: No.

Bonnie: What? Really?

Sunny: I left.

Bonnie: Oh yeah, you left. You’re like, “No, I just left.”

Sunny: Eventually, I just left. But it was a lot of mental drama around that. I mean, I advocated hard. I’m a fierce advocate. But anyway, back to what you were saying, right, so then I made you an offer, and then we worked together. And then, one thing that I think was also remarkable was that you had this idea that if you left your job, your four-day-a-week job, you felt kind of trapped, that you were going to owe them six figures in back pay.

And that was very intimidating to you. And so you felt very trapped. And this is for all the women physicians listening who are still with us who are listening and feeling trapped. Bonnie Koo, your podcast host, had a contract that said if she wanted to leave, she had to pay six figures. How much more trapped can you feel?

Bonnie: It was a little more ambiguous, but yeah, it was like six figures.

Sunny: Yeah, and you decided you were leaving anyway, come hell or high water. And they waived it.

Bonnie: Yeah, I think I’d just gotten to a place where I was like, I can always make the money. It really came down to similar to what we were talking about before. I knew that if I stayed the rest of the year, I did the math. I’m like, well, if I stayed for, I don’t know, it was eight months, I forget what it was, I would break even. And then I think I just was like, I can’t. I don’t want to wait eight months to break even. I was like, no.

And then, of course, it wasn’t an easy decision because I was like, “Well, I don’t have six figures lying around,” because whatever.

Sunny: Right.

Bonnie: And then I just was like, I’ll figure it out.

Sunny: I’ll figure it out.

Bonnie: I’ll figure out a way to pay them back. You know what I mean? I was just prepared. And yeah, so it ended up working out. And I see, and I’m sure you see this too in a lot of the physician groups that we’re in, it’s a tragedy that so many physicians are not happy with their jobs. For the most part, they genuinely love practicing medicine, but practicing medicine is not actually practicing medicine anymore, right?

And then to read them thinking they really feel like they can’t make money any other way because they have no skills.

Sunny: I know. Yeah. Right.

Bonnie: And they’ll even say things like, well, maybe I should go back to school and get my MBA.

Sunny: Right.

Bonnie: And actually, I commented on something like a year ago because someone, I guess, found it and replied back to me because I just got the notification. And I replied back, and I was like, you can do whatever you want. There are so many ways to make money. And I just said things like that. And then some people were like, “It’s true. I think we’re in this bubble, and we don’t think we can make money any other way.” And then they’ll say things like, “Well, I definitely can’t make as much money as my physician job.”

Sunny: Yes, right.

Bonnie: Also not true. In fact, once you enter the entrepreneur world, you actually see that doctors actually don’t make that much compared to most entrepreneurs. And actually, I remember a derm messaging me when I kind of told them I was going into this business. He was like, and it wasn’t from a mean place. He kind of was like, “I don’t see how you’re going to make more than your dermatologist income.” But he wasn’t being mean. I think he just was like, genuinely, that’s just not possible.

Sunny: Mm-hmm. Well, what I think now when people say limiting beliefs that I don’t agree with is just, thank you for showing me your model. Like, thank you for showing me your mental construct of the world. That is their true belief. It is their projection of their belief onto you. And they’re scared for you.

In fact, I was speaking at a conference, a women’s cardiovascular metabolic health conference, because lord knows I’m an expert cardiovascular metabolic health person. But it was about women’s wellness. And so I was speaking, and I was introduced by an amazing national leader in the space who’s very well regarded.

And she said, “I remember when Sunny told me,” this is how she introduced me on the stage. “I remember when Sunny told me she was leaving UCSD. And I told her, Sunny, don’t do it. Sunny, your pension,” because she works at the same university. “Sunny, what are you doing? If you only stay till you’re 50, here’s what you’ll get. And if you stay till you’re 62, here’s what you get. And what are you doing? Why would you undermine your whole career?”

And she said, “And you know what? She’s run one of the businesses that are in the top 1% in the US for the past three years. Introducing Sunny Smith, the Tony Robbins of physicians.”

Bonnie: I remember you telling me that, yeah.

Sunny: I was like, that is the craziest introduction. And so fun and spirited and like, because you could tell we’re actually friends and know each other. Like she was bringing out her own limitations in thinking that I couldn’t or shouldn’t. And she wanted to keep me safe, right? That person was trying to keep you safe. They’re looking out for your well-being.

And, for instance, you said once you started hanging around entrepreneurs, like I have moved, and I’m in a neighborhood where everyone’s an entrepreneur. And it’s just the physician mindset. You don’t realize it is a culture and it is a mindset until you’re really interacting with other cultures and being like, whoa, the conversations over here are very different. The mindset is very different. What people think is possible and normal is very different.

And so now that I’m at least equally exposed to both worlds, when you realize what we think is so much a psychology and an indoctrination of like there’s no coincidence that most women physicians that I coach face very similar issues with what’s holding them back about their life and their unhappiness in their life, right? That’s just not a coincidence.

You go into a system. They teach you a whole bunch of things. They teach you you’re going to be hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt, right? And you’re going to have to sacrifice yourself really, really hard for a very long time. And then you’re going to want to get to zero, and then you’re going to want to, like, all the things you’re going to want to do. And you’re just going to keep on this path, and then eventually, you’ll be happy when you’re a full professor.

And I was like, yeah, I’m a full professor several times over now. And I’m still working as hard as I was years and years ago, and this isn’t getting any better. Where’s the off-ramp to this experience? And there isn’t what is socially acceptable as an off-ramp to the 60 to 80-hour physician sort of life expectation.

And when you do consider, whether it’s you go part-time or you do anything that’s a little different, people start resenting you because they’re like, “Must be nice,” right, if anyone works halftime, because then they’re like, well, you must have a rich husband, right?

Bonnie: Totally.

Sunny: Or must be nice because da, da, da. There’s always this must be nice and like, who did they think they are? And again, it’s resentment because they sacrifice themselves so much, and they think like there’s this whole idea, I know you are aware, that women are taking a spot from a man who would have stayed full-time until they were 65. That’s a bunch of bullshit, right?

We are not taking a spot from anyone. How about creating a system in which everyone feels that they can work on their terms for as long as they want, however they want, with the number of hours they want, and not treating someone who chooses to leave the system, either out of agency or out of necessity, as like they’re doing the best that they can do for themselves right now.

And it’s okay to physician or women physician any way you want, anytime you want. I respect you, right? Physicianing is hard. You can do this life any way you want. But no, we have, like our culture is to judge physicians who do anything differently.

I got pulled into an exam room by a supervisor saying, “What are you doing posting pictures of you in the Maldives? What are people going to think?” I’m like, “They’re going to think I went to the Maldives on vacation after a work trip.” Because that’s when I went to India, you know, to meet the Dalai Lama, and I was on the other side of the world for work, paid for by my work.

And so I thought while I was there, why don’t I go somewhere nearby and go somewhere beautiful before I come home? What do you mean, what are people going to think? I was on vacation, right? But they expect you to appear as if you’re suffering at all times, or it’s not acceptable.

Bonnie: No, no, there’s so much to even say about that. Yeah, like the judgments. And one of the things I think is actually in my book is this full-time construct is made up.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: Someone just made up like people should work five days a week, although I know a lot of doctors work a lot more because of charting, et cetera, et cetera. And we just all have bought into it. I have clients who are a few years away from getting the full pension, but they’re miserable.

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: But they feel like they can’t because of the pension. And I’m just like you just have to make a decision. You can choose to stay for the two years. That’s totally fine. And you can choose to like, I don’t know if love is the word, but you can choose not to be miserable for those two years.

Just like your reasons for whatever you do, because I think basically the fear is, well, if I leave now – I think she would still get it, but not the full – that she won’t be able to make up for that or she’s going to basically have this decreased income “forever.” I’ve noticed a lot of my clients will project.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: A lot of them do end up going part-time in my program, even though maybe they “financially can’t do it.” But they’re just like, I want to do this. And then the fear about, well, I’m going to have less income. I’m like, temporarily.

Sunny: Temporarily. And here’s what I find, since your mind, particularly as a physician but as a human, your mind is your greatest asset. And so if we are spending it/investing it in our patients, in our charts, in clinical productivity, and RVUs, that is how we’re utilizing our mind.

And so if you do allow medicine to take up 60% or 80%, which by the way, 60 and 80% of physician work is basically usually full-time for any other human being, right, because with the charting and all the other stuff. But if you give yourself space, if you give yourself 20, 30 hours a week where you could just think about whatever you wanted and do whatever you wanted, your mind starts to go to things that serve you. And so I think that opens up a space.

I know I went from 1.0 to .8 to .6 to .17. And at each one of those types of things like we started doing new and different varied things, right? I mean, I thought I’d never, I never ever thought I’d be an entrepreneur, ever. And now I think we must have like; I don’t know, 7, 8, 9 companies, right? Like, how’s a full-time doctor working 80 hours a week going to make that happen?

Bonnie: Yes.

Sunny: So when you think your income is going down, it’s you create space for other things. And you’re like, wow, I really can if I want to. I don’t have to, and there’s no rush to do it, right? It’s not like, well, I went part-time, so next month, I better figure out how to replace my income. It’s like, hey, I’ll give myself a year, right?

And God forbid, what, if you’re going to earn 300,000, then you earn 150, like cry me a river, people. You’ll make it work. And you’ll pay less taxes. And in fact, you can probably work on some things that will gain you a lot of money back on the earned income that you made because you had space and time to figure out how you could do that.

Bonnie: There’s been a lot of, I feel like, in the last few coaching calls; in fact, I have one today. Just a lot of like cutting down because their well-being needs it.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: And then subsequently worrying about the decrease in income. And again, I remind them this is temporary, and you’re going to have so much more space to think. And it’s like, give yourself three to six months to just chill, right? Because we work so hard. You know, they’re working so hard, and it’s like they don’t even, you know, a lot of them have just created this life where they’ve just been on a hamster wheel. And they don’t even know, like they don’t know what their desires are. A lot of your clients don’t even know what they want.

And this is so normal. Even me, I was thinking about, like, what do I really want? I have some ideas, right? But it’s taking the time to slow down and do that. And in fact, one of the things that I talked about in a previous podcast is like doing a retreat for you.

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: Like in your life, right?

Sunny: Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie: But yeah, that’s just that linear mindset of how money is made. And so if you have this decrease and you don’t make money for three months or make less, that’s going to like eff you up forever.

Sunny: Right.

Bonnie: Because the way we think about money is so linear. Like if I make this, this is what I’m going to make forever. I’m like just introducing the concept of, like, there’s no behind. You’re never too old because just the way like money actually works. You can make so much of it, and it won’t even matter that you made less the last year.

Sunny: Right. I mean, there are so many examples. And entrepreneurs are great examples of this. Of course, there are things like, you know, Colonel Sanders was 65 when he sold his chicken recipe or whatever. The illusion that money is linear and that you’re going to save over time, and only compound interest of your physician income and a certain amount needs to be done a certain way. It’s just like it’s all a fallacy. We’ve all been fed this, right, that it has to be done a certain way.

And I was listening yesterday to a brand new IG live by Elizabeth Gilbert, who I really like, as you know, on a book with an author on a book called Rest is Resistance. You probably have seen this book going around. But she talks about the importance of rest. And honestly, she sees rest as a social justice movement and radical. And it’s not just self-care, but it’s community care.

Because if we continue to comply with this capitalism and indoctrination of the Industrial Revolution, and like productivity, productivity, productivity at all costs. Especially the author, as a Black woman, she says I am dishonoring my ancestors who worked so hard so that I could one day rest, right? And even for women physicians or women, it’s like people who have come before us have worked so hard. Why are we continuing to perpetuate that when we don’t have to and we have the gift that we actually could rest?

And then she talks about what comes when you do allow yourself to rest. And for her, there’s been all these amazing things that have come, and for many people, she works with. The amazingness that comes with play and dreaming, and the right brain. And these inventions or changes or radical things come when you have that downtime and that space, and you’re daydreaming.

That’s when the new and different ways of thinking come because you know that sort of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs, the self-actualization is at the top. So you need to have all your other needs met before you’re even willing or capable or able to think about those things.

Whereas when you’re a super, super busy physician, you’re going to try and logic your way out of this. But you’re really in panic mode all the time, and your brain doesn’t really have the capacity to deal with anything else but finishing your to-do list.

Bonnie: Yes, stress mode.

Sunny: Yeah, stress mode. It’s like being in residency all the time, right? How much creativity is there going to be during that time? Well, okay, derm residency is different, but most of your audience knows what I’m talking about. So yeah, I’m just saying, like giving yourself – Mine is a great example. I wasn’t even thinking of this. But I never anticipated any downtime. I had three months of absolute rest, couldn’t stand, couldn’t feed myself, right, absolute rest. Couldn’t do my ADLs.

And in three months of allowing myself, because I had no other choice, to do absolutely nothing, my brain came up with a whole new life for me. And if I had been continuing to work nights and weekends during that time, I would still be working nights and weekends.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: So what if? What if? If we just lent the thought to some of your listeners that maybe three to six months of downtime would be the key to allowing yourself to dream of a life you actually want, and in my experience, that’s actually true for women physicians.

So a lot of people will end up in my coaching program, like, say they have broken their leg, and they need time off. Some physical thing has stopped them in their tracks, then they’re like, “Oh my gosh, I have time. I could actually do this thing, this coaching program.” And then they do it and then like, “Oh my gosh.” Like once you stop, once you’re busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, and then you stop, you’re like, “Oh shit, do I really want to go back to what that was?” And then you just think, right?

So the people who are allowing themselves some space, it’s a huge gift. And again, I mean, my case is a different case. I do want to acknowledge that. Again, I already said I’m in the first or second percentile, right, of women-run businesses in the United States. So I don’t want everyone to think that if they take three months off, that is going to happen. You know that I have this idea, it’s important to say that. There are risks, benefits, and alternatives to going into entrepreneurship.

But if you do allow yourself the time, your brain will start wandering and start thinking differently about the choices you have made in your life. And what it would like to choose next. But when we’re so busy, it doesn’t do that. And so that downtime that I had, has created an increase in net worth of millions of dollars, literally.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: So I think it was a pretty good idea to take a little time off.

Bonnie: Yeah. Well, you had no choice either. But I think that’s also; you said it more simply than I was trying to say, so for my clients who are going part-time, and some of them do it intentionally. Like, I’m going to do a six-month thing and do locums, et cetera, and then they freak out about money. I’m like, but what if this is what’s required in order for you to make a lot more money?

And also, we’re really shitty at resting. We don’t know how to rest.

Sunny: We don’t know how to rest. Exactly, we don’t know how to rest.

Bonnie: We have time off, and then we’re like, let’s clean the closet, let’s make some food.

Sunny: Exactly. The only other time I was on leave, I was on bed rest, and that’s when I wrote my paper that’s in JAMA. I’m like, “I’ll lay there, but I will not rest.” because we don’t know how, right? So we come up with other things.

Bonnie: I get my best ideas; I actually feel like I’m less creative when I’m working in my office. It’s when I’m driving, right

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: It’s when I’m driving and doing something completely unrelated, like just walking around. Actually, because I like to cook, so even when I’m cooking, it’s just that’s when I get ideas. But yeah, I just love what you’re saying. We have to give ourselves the space to create the space to rest. And then, once you do take the time to slow down and you’ve experienced it, it’s highly unlikely you’ll want to go back to the way it was.

Sunny: Yes, exactly. When you create that space, that’s when, as you said, I like to cook. And you lean into your ideas in that space because that’s what lights you up. I hate cooking. I would never want to cook. When Jake is like, “Can you make me some pasta?” I’m like, “Ah, can’t we find something in the freezer? Come on. There’s some fruit.”

So that’s just a demonstration of the differences that when you give yourself the downtime, who you were before med school and before you had to work 24 hours all the time or just be so busy, who you were, who you are, that starts to come back up again.

And I find women physicians really do start leaning into those things again that light them up. Like if someone takes FMLA or someone in their family gets sick, and so they go part-time, they’re like, I started hiking again. I haven’t hiked since undergrad. Or I started painting again. Right, so it’s like we get to lean back into those things that light us up that just had to go by the wayside.

And then, not everything needs to be monetized. You can just enjoy your life, because why do we want more money? So that we can enjoy our lives. Okay, well, just start enjoying your life now. It’s like that parable about the guy with the fishing. I’m sure you know the story.

Do you want to tell the story about the fishing and the, like, an investment banker or something comes to visit a tiny little fishing village, and there’s a man who’s in a boat and fishing, and the MBA guy is like, “Oh, you should create a business and you could have all these people working for you and have all of these fishing boats.” I’m sure I’m going to totally mess up the story.

Bonnie: I don’t know the story.

Sunny: Oh, you don’t know the story? I wish I could tell it in the way that it’s intended to be told. So the fisherman, you know, and then you could have this whole company. And you could have all these people working for you. And you could have all of these boats. And you could create all kinds of money and da, da, da, da. And then so that you could eventually retire and then go sit on the ocean and rest and go fishing. And he’s like, I’m doing that now.

So the whole point of the story is like you could just rest and enjoy what you want now. You don’t have to create this whole life where you amass all this wealth so that you can relax and enjoy your life. It’s like the fallacy that you have to go off and build this big business just to get back to what it is you already want and is right in front of you right now, right?

Like if you had $10 million, what would you be doing? You would probably be spending some time with your kid. You would probably go to a beach and swim in the pool. Like yeah, I kind of have those things now. Why am I waiting, you know what I mean, to amass this wealth to be able to do the things I want when they’re right in front of me right now?

Bonnie: Yeah, well, there’s just this fallacy that this is how it goes. You get a job. You work for several decades, and you build this nest egg. And we’re told that making 10 or 12% a year in the stock market is great. Now I know like that’s just, that’s nothing.

Sunny: The floor, that’s the floor.

Bonnie: That’s the floor, yeah. Anyone that tells you otherwise is lying and it’s scammy. And we know in entrepreneurship your mind can just create money so many times more than, like, 10% is, especially with inflation. That’s like nothing, literally, right?

especially these days. Well, I’ll say in terms of that, you know, speaking of the entrepreneur mindset, you know Alex Hormozi, the author. He says the 80-year-old version of you, he would trade all of the money you have to go back to be the 30 or 40-year-old version of you, like all the money. And he plans on being a billionaire, right?

It’s like no matter how much wealth we amass as physicians like, the average physician might have some number of millions. And hopefully, that’s actually encouraging to people listening. Yeah, maybe a quarter of physicians won’t have a million dollars at retirement, but that’s probably not your audience, right? So chances are, they’re going to have millions of dollars at the time that they stop working.

Yet, we would give; we really, really, sincerely would trade all of that money to get this time of our life back. To get our youth, to get our health, to get our children, to get just what we have. The vibrancy of this time of our life, because this is priceless. So if we know that now, why are we trading this time now for the money? It’s just fascinating to look at it that way because there always is enough.

It’s like I really have come to believe, and it’s funny because now, staying in Puerto Rico a lot, there really are interruptions of electricity and water and things like that. But I have come to believe in money the way that I believe in water when you’re in an industrialized nation. It’s just you go to the tap, and it’s always there. It’s always there. Okay, have there been the storms of the century, and Texas froze and stuff like that? Yes. But nearly always, it’s always there.

Money is always there when you need it. And again, I came from a time when there was a lot of scarcity in our life as a child. A lot of abundance in our life at times. And you really can transition from scarcity to maybe sufficiency to complete abundance. It’s always there in the closet. It really is. There are a million ways to earn it. Don’t tell yourself there’s not. There is.

Bonnie: Yeah, I mean, that’s really like my message to the people I help, right? No money situation is permanent.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: And, because a lot of them, as I said, are in scarcity. They feel like they don’t have enough, and they feel like they can’t go part-time because of the money. So I almost feel like I really meant to have you just have a conversation as you as my coach, but I’m glad it turned into this because I think the message, I think what you and I have is like there’s always a different way.

You don’t have to stay in a situation that you don’t want to be in. You can make money in a different way. You can make a lot more money in a different way. It’s encouraging, like you just have to take that first step of almost declaring, I want something else.

Sunny: And even if all you’re declaring is I don’t want this. I don’t know what it is I want, but I don’t want this. Okay, well, let’s go then. What’s your first step in not wanting this? You don’t have to figure out what’s next always because you want to get it right. We want to go, and that’s another thing, too, right? It’s just we want to go from this full-time job to the next full-time job with, like, maybe a weekend or a week in between. Really?

Bonnie: Oh, you know what? She might be listening, but one of my clients knew she was going to go part-time. And she was like, oh, maybe like in a year. It ended up being like three months.

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: But one of her concerns, I think it was her. I might be messing up clients because, basically, a lot of them want to work less, right? That’s why they work with me on building a business.

Sunny: Yeah, of course.

Bonnie: And so she was like, well, what am I going to do with all this free time? Like she was worried about that. And I’m like, “You will figure it out. Don’t worry.”

Sunny: You will not have free time. That’s not the human experience. We fill our time, right?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: Like, if you’re a grandma, I’m sure all of us can think of our grandmas at some point. They’re like, “Oh, I can’t on Monday. I have to go to the bank.” Going to the bank becomes something that takes up eight hours of your mind space, right? Let’s do it on Tuesday. Oh, wait, I have a hair appointment, whatever the thing is. But you fill up your life, grocery shopping and, like, whatever.

It’s like everything expands to take the time that is allowed. And so you will never feel like, oh my God, I have so much time. I don’t know. I don’t know anybody who feels like, oh my god, I have so much time. I think that’s an unfounded fear.

Bonnie: I think sometimes I think that, but then I’m like, how come I didn’t – It’s not even like productivity, I’m like, well, how come I didn’t work out or do this? I go back and forth between I have tons of free time I don’t. I have plenty of time on the weekends, but I have a five-year-old crazy person running around.

Sunny: Exactly, exactly.

Bonnie: So just yesterday, I’m like, maybe we should find an activity for him.

Sunny: Yes. So since you brought up talking about us and the focus that you thought we would have of us talking about me being your coach, can you reflect on – because the coach journey is never about the coach, it’s always about the client – you back then working four days a week, probably like a typical client of yours except they might be five. But full-time for you was four. Feeling at a crossroads, not knowing what to do, and feeling stuck, frankly, really very stuck and pretty distressed to where you are now. So if you think about your journey, what would you day are your reflections on that?

Bonnie: I also love that you’ve said a few times because I think I’m always like, “Well, what do you want to do?” But I think it is easier for most people to think like what don’t you want to do. And then I think as a dermatologist too, I felt guilt isn’t the word. You know, because a lot of other specialties say it must be nice to be a dermatologist.

And they think we make so much money, and other specialties make so much more money than we do. Anyway, actually most of my other friends who weren’t dermatologists were making more money than me. But that’s a whole other situation.

So I didn’t want to do what I was doing. Like I did not love my job. And I didn’t love Philadelphia. That’s where we were living. I hated it. Sorry, those of you who love Philly. Just like, you know, when you’re a New Yorker, you know, no other city compares except for maybe Paris. And then, yeah, feeling stuck because of the money.

And a large part of it was working with a coach, you, learning to think differently. And I remember one of the first things you taught me was putting a lot of maybes in front of things.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: Just maybe, just maybe. And I tell my clients, too, if they’re really struggling, just put like ten maybes in it, and it’ll seem possible because really what it comes down to is opening your mind that what you might be thinking is true may not be true. Like just even that little crack, that’s why inserting those ten maybes, just like creates a little crack or a little nugget of curiosity in your brain that maybe what you believe just might not be true.

Sometimes it’s jarring, and you’re like, no, no, it’s definitely true. But I think that’s one of our jobs as coaches, is to just really try to help them just be a little curious. And then the magical part of that is curiosity is like the seed for creativity in their brain because then their brain is just like, “Whoa, huh, maybe something else is possible.”

So, I think that’s really just what happened. I don’t remember exactly my thought process; you might remember it more. But I think that nugget of curiosity entered my brain from working with you. And then you just start seeing things and thinking things that you would have never considered. I call it magic.

In fact, when I talk to my clients about making goals 1, 2, 3, 4 or they think about, well, how am I going to get there? And you’ll come up with some rudimentary plan. I’m like, and then there’s magic.

Sunny: Magic, exactly.

Bonnie: You don’t know how it’s going to happen. That’s what I say. I’m like, there’s magic. And everyone’s like, what? I’m like, okay. Because I think we’ve all had experiences where we didn’t quite know how it was going to go, but something kind of pushed you.

So once that nugget of curiosity entered my brain, then I got an email for a locums position in Seattle that summer. And this is actually before I decided. I kind of was on the brink. Like, should I stay? Should I go? And then I was like, because I had been to Seattle, and the summer is the best time. I don’t even remember my thought process. I think I just was like, I want to do this. I’m going to apply because, obviously, I may not have gotten it right because multiple people probably wanted it.

So then I went to Seattle. And, obviously, we handled leaving the job, leaving Philly. And also, Matt kind of made me move to Philly. So I was like, “My turn, let’s go to Seattle. Let’s travel.” We picked the place in New Jersey, which is where I live now. Dropped off our stuff, and then we went back and forth.

And then, when I was in Seattle, the Hawaii job got offered. You know what I mean?

Sunny: That’s the magic.

Bonnie: That’s the magic. And then you had your Bora Bora retreat, that December. It was 2019. And the date of the Hawaii job started the week after Bora Bora. So I don’t know if you remember, but after Bora Bora, I flew from Tahiti directly to Honolulu.

Sunny: You’re like, how is this my life? Okay, six months ago, I thought I was trapped. And now I’m going to Bora Bora and then going to Hawaii to work as a dermatologist in the winter instead of being in New York. Like just make space for a little bit of magic to occur. And I remember when you were there, that you had hit your goals and various things, and we celebrated you do with Dom Perignon.

And you told people, you sort of stood up and told people as an example, you’re like, “Listen, this is what it really can be like. Think of a dream, and make it come true. Rinse, repeat.” Right? Because you’re like, that is what my life has been this past year. You were working with me, right? And I wrote it down on a little card for you and gave it to you with your Dom Perignon. Think of a dream, make it come true, rinse, repeat. It was your words. And that was your experience at that time.

And that is magical thinking, right? Children have magical thinking. My son has such magical thinking. He thinks he can do all kinds of things. And he actually does make them happen because he doesn’t have the limiting beliefs that adults have, right? And so allow yourself to have magical thinking. Why not? Allow yourself to say, like your listeners can think, if I had a magic wand, then what? See what comes to mind. Just allow for the magic.

Bonnie: Yeah. And you need space and time to even think that there’s magic out there. Yeah. So is there anything else that you would like to say that you didn’t say?

Sunny: Honestly, since you asked just right there, I would invite them to try on that that mantra is not just available for Bonnie Koo, that they have been doing that in their life, too. They can probably look for evidence that they thought of a dream and they made it come true, AKA becoming a physician had to have been a dream at some point, or you wouldn’t put up with everything it takes to get through to where you are today. Make it come true, pause. Then you reassess because sometimes there’s another dream.

In fact, most often, there’s another dream, right? So then rinse and repeat. So I would just ask everyone to look because you have a filter through which you see the world that is a cognitive bias. And it’s confirmation bias, in addition to negativity bias. But confirmation bias is real. So if you look back at your life through the lens of think of a dream, make it come true, rinse, repeat. And think, every woman physician here listening, think of your life.

And think of several times that stick out to you when you thought of a dream, and you made it come true. Say you wanted to get married, and you did. Say you wanted to have a child, and you did or didn’t. Who knows? Say whatever the things are, some things you really wanted in your life. You wanted to buy a home. You wanted to buy Bonnie’s book. You wanted to do whatever, right?

Say you wanted to make a podcast, and you have one now. No matter how many people are listening, you have one. You made it come true, right? So if you’re an entrepreneur, that was a dream. You made it come true. You did that. And then you rinsed and repeated and did it again. And so I would just encourage you to pause in this space and say, okay, let’s allow ourselves to carry that forward.

Think of another dream, and make it come true. And rinse and repeat. And just know that that is a cycle that’s available in our lives over and over again. And to learn to live in the fascination of that and see it coming true everywhere. And then you also see it coming true not only for you because it’s not egotistical. It’s about watching that happen over and over again for your children.

As I said, my son makes this happen all the time. I mean, his room is, like, starting to look crazy. He has LED lights all over. He has lava lamps. He has all these dreams. And then he’s like, “I did it.” He’s so proud and invites his friends over, and then shortly after, he’s got a new dream, right?

And so just allow yourself, I would say, to do that because it’s the whole, you know, when you were in Bora Bora, I handed you a notebook that said, “She believes she could, so she did.” So let’s just believe we can and set out towards that way.

And sometimes the dream changes, and allow yourself to course correct, course correct, course correct. Expect yourself to course correct. Expect the dream to keep changing. And just, again, live in that fascination as much as you can. And if you find that you really can’t, you might want to seek mental health help.

Seriously, you might want to do a PHQ9, which is a depression screening that is universally recommended in the United States just as much as a pap smear and a mammogram. If you really can’t dream, there’s probably something to pay attention to. That’s something to pay attention to. Because some people listening will be like, “That’s nice for her. Bonnie Koo and Sunny Smith are talking about dreaming. That’s not available for me.”

But again, it is. It’s available for all humans. All humans, not just doctors. Small children, adults, and elderly. And to know that all of us have agency and all of us have our own preferences and ways we want to continue to change our lives. So just allow yourself to be a woman physician on your own terms.

Don’t take any BS from anyone who says it has to be any particular way. If you could do it any which way you wanted, that would come true, like allowing yourself to live in the magic of what that would look like. And then you just start getting warmer or getting colder. And that’s it. Keep heading towards where you get warmer.

Bonnie: I love it, Sunny. And I’ll just say one quick thing, and then we should end, and I want you to tell people how they can find you.

I remember in a Facebook group, people were asking like, if you could do anything, or if you weren’t a derm, like what would you do? And people were saying things like, I’d be a dancer. And I said I want to get paid to take tropical vacations or luxury vacations. And then, you know, because I think these were things like people were just dreaming, but this is just, yeah, ha, ha, it’s not going to happen.

And someone was like, oh yeah, that would be – I forget, just some comments, like, whatever. And I’m like, no, no, this is going to happen.

Sunny: Right. Some people are like, “I would be a National Geographic photographer,” or something like that. Like in a different career, that is never going to happen, right? And you’re like, “I would get paid to take tropical vacations,” which is something that people would say is crazy. Like just the belief, it will never come true. I would love to sit on the beach, have champagne, have pina coladas, and whatever. And like, no, that’s a thing. You actually did make that come true. You run retreats in Hawaii.

Bonnie: I had an idea. It’s not like I was like, let’s just do this. I was like, no, this can happen. I was like, I know it can happen. So anyway, I just wanted to put that out there that, yeah.

Sunny: It can even be paid to sit on tropical islands. Most of us won’t do that, but there really are many women physicians here who are working and have the ability and position, right, in their current job to run CME conferences through the university. I used to run CME conferences in many different universities as part of the role that I played. Why wouldn’t you just pick Hawaii as one of them or Florida as one of them? Like you really can.

Start looking for ways to align with those things that your mind thinks is a crazy dreams and magic. You can probably find some way to get a little closer to it. And you did that.

Bonnie: One more thing. Sorry, I keep thinking of things, and this is like a hodgepodge. But you mentioned seeking mental health help. And there were a few times during my relationship with Sunny when she pointed out that maybe I needed to get some help. And I’ve talked about this on the podcast anxiety and depression. As someone who has experienced times where I’ve needed help, it’s not obvious to you that you need help. It’s obvious to people who know you.

And basically, what I’ve experienced twice in the last two years is I can’t get my brain to believe in new things or dream. I just am in this negative; I’m not even quite sure how to explain it. But this last time, a friend was like, “Are you on your meds?” And she’s a good friend of mine, so she can ask questions like that.

Sunny: Yep.

Bonnie: And I’m like, yes. And then she just was like, very gentle, basically, she’s like I’m worried for you, that type of stuff. But I think what I’ve noticed both times is coaching was not helping me.

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: I just could not change my way of thinking. And this is different than having a fixed mindset. It wasn’t that. And then I was using coaching against me because I was like, why isn’t this working? Why isn’t this working? And anyway, so anyone listening who, as Sunny said, is like, “It must be nice,” or are struggling like you know you’re struggling. Get help. It’s available.

And what I have found so powerful about that is, it’s like, yeah, I’m on medication. I don’t even know if it’s really helped because it’s like a placebo dose, but honestly just even admitting and acknowledging. And actually, for me, what’s so powerful both times is the psychiatrist. The first time she goes, “You’re depressed.” And just having someone say that to me, it just, I don’t know, I started crying because I just was like –

It’s not even so much having the diagnosis, it was just relief. It wasn’t just something wrong with me. It’s like something was. My brain wasn’t functioning. And then the second time it happened, she just was like, “You seem really sad.” That’s what she said to me. So then she increased the meds. Anyway.

Sunny: Yeah, I mean, I think that by the time a woman physician acknowledges or says that she needs help, she’s probably way past the place in which a non-physician would have been seeking help because we have been trained so well to focus and go on and suck it up. And it doesn’t matter if you’re having a miscarriage or a migraine, or you’re vomiting, or whatever the thing is. Like you just keep going.

And so that’s all we know, is you just keep going. And so by the time you cry, uncle, it’s late in the game, right? And the data shows that we have very little self-compassion, as physicians, compared to the general population. And our mental health outcomes are worse, not when we’re admitted to med school, but in every moment thereafter. And in internship, 20% of interns are suicidal.

So it’s not like a flippant comment when we say things like this. It’s like, knowing the reach of your audience, 100% guaranteed someone listening to this is suicidal right now. Guaranteed. This data doesn’t support anything else. It would be statistically improbable, less than 000000001P value, right? And a significant portion of the people listening are depressed and feeling hopeless.

Bonnie: Yeah, feeling hopeless is sort of my signal.

Sunny: Yes. I think it’s a danger signal again. And even if you think about depression, or you think about suicidality or just human suffering, not being able to have hope is a very concerning sign. And so there’s a physician support line that is completely free and anonymous that anyone can call. Anyone can call their primary care doctor.

People have concerns about it going on their medical records, and in different states, there are different questions. And what I always say about it because, I mean, I’m on Amazon streaming right now, right, talking about mental health. I talk about it from every stage, every place, everything. I am on medications. You said for yourself that you’re not sure if they work. I can 100% tell you, for me, it’s like a light switch. When I stop taking it, my husband notices first, and I get mad at him for noticing. I’m like, “I’m taking it enough. Okay, I’ve only forgotten it a few days.”

But it’s so real, so repeatable, so biologic. I had never been on it until six years ago. And now, anytime I try to get off, if I make it for a little while, I don’t make it that long. It’s very real. It’s very biological. It is as real as needing insulin for sugar. And we would never shame ourselves or not go to the doctor if our sugar was 300. We just wouldn’t. Or if we had a breast tumor, or if we had, we would go no matter what the consequences would be on our medical license or on our insurance or on whatever, right?

We would go if we had the other things. And this, I believe so, so, so much, and I think it’s going to be interesting to see 20 and 50 and 100 years from now, how much more we do know about the brain and mental health and how real and biologic this is. This is real. This is treatable. Eff the stigma, right? Go, we’ll deal with that later because this is the one and only precious life.

And so to anyone listening who feels like they’re trapped because of money and are wondering when we’re going to give them the solution to that, the answer is to start to believe that there is hope and that you always have a choice.

And that starts with the tiniest, tiniest, tiniest step, which is saying, perhaps maybe even like, I need help. That’s it. That’s all you need to know. People are like I don’t know who to call, where to go, what to do, I don’t have a psychiatrist, da, da, da. Just try one person, right? That’s it. And if they suck, then move on.

The first psychiatrist that I ever went to ever after I lost someone to suicide and waited six months, which was way too long, and then was terribly problematic with intrusive suicidal ideation myself, blaming myself. I showed up, and he was like, he was a locums guy. Nothing wrong with locums people, right, but he was just visiting. And he’s like, “Yeah, what I really want to do is create a ketamine clinic for Britney Spears and famous people in LA.”

And I’m just looking at him. I’m like, I’m having intrusive suicidal ideations right now, and you’re talking to me about your business plans. Right? Like, that was just incredibly inappropriate. Because I was a physician, he wanted to talk to me about being a physician and having side gigs and stuff. I’m just like, what is going on here? And so I never went back to him. But thank goodness, I just went to the next one, right?

And just, anyway, to find a space where you feel safe and heard. And don’t be perfectionistic about it. Just be willing to speak.

Bonnie: Yeah. Sorry, I’m just saying that just because we’re, this is a great podcast. It’s just like winding around different topics. But this is such an important topic. Actually, as you were saying, it’s not that I don’t think meds have helped me. Sometimes I just feel like I feel instantaneously better just like having her tell me, like, yeah, you seem more upset. That’s helpful.

Sunny: Yes, both and.

Bonnie: So I’m on, apparently, like a baby dose of sertraline, 25 milligrams, or like, people just tell me that’s like that’s placebo dose. I will tell you, every time I try to get off of it, even if I do a long taper, I don’t feel good. A month after I try to stop, I feel horrible.

Sunny: And now you know that about yourself, right?

Bonnie: You know, the dose range is like, you know, every human is different. It’s happened three times where I feel like it’s repeatable. And so I’m just like, I’m just going to be on 25 milligrams forever. At least for now, right? Because I’m not going to risk getting off of it and feeling terrible because then it takes time for it to work again, you know?

Sunny: Right.

Bonnie: All right, where can people find you, Sunny?

Sunny: This is a podcast, so I will say they could listen to me on their podcast app. Right now, while they’re listening, they could go over to Empowering Women Physicians. Although we have a small number of podcasts coming out live that are public podcasts in the past years, they’re very high quality, in my opinion. They’re very meaningful to me.

They’re very, like, they’re the words of women physicians truths. They’re speaking our truth. It’s like micro mentoring from women physicians to other women physicians of lessons we all need to know. And so, I would encourage people to listen to those episodes. And we’re going to be doing a whole bunch more in 2023. I finally have a team that I love, and I think is doing a good job running my business so that I can focus on this stuff.

They can also go to empoweringwomenphysicians.com. Of course, there’s like a free guide there. I have like free lists of books that I love there. I have references for data on coaching because coaching really is an evidence-based intervention. And if there is or was any kind of pill, we just talked about pills; if there were pills that had the outcomes that coaching had, everyone would be on them, right? The data is very strong for them. So I’m happy to give people the data there.

Oh, and we have a Facebook group. Of course, I love my Facebook group. I really genuinely, and you know this, Bonnie. You love being on Facebook, too. But I genuinely love being on Facebook. I’m probably addicted to Facebook. But I really genuinely, sincerely love being there to help even a stranger or people that I know only on social media.

And I believe that social media relationships are real and impactful and change people’s lives. How do I know? Because I hear evidence of it all the time. So yes, they can definitely go to Empowering Women Physicians in Facebook and look for the Facebook group. And they can type in their ask questions. You have to be a woman physician; that’s our only entry criteria MD, DO. So if you have NPs and stuff that listen or MAs, I’m sorry, we love you. But that’s not the space for you. There are other spaces.

So those are the places that people can genuinely find me. And I’m in there being loquacious just like I was with you, just like I am on this podcast. Just like I have a characteristic -

Bonnie: You’re just being you, Sunny.

Sunny: Exactly. I’m just being me. I used to believe there was something wrong. That was part of what coaching, the gift it has given me is. I really used to believe very strongly there was something wrong with my brain and why I’m like this. And some people really don’t like it, and some of my admins have quit over the length of my Slack messages to them. And I’m last minute and all these things.

Bonnie: Let’s just tell people real quick how last minute you are.

Sunny: I mean, I don’t know.

Bonnie: The flights.

Sunny: I just bought my flight last night, and I’m hosting a retreat in Bora Bora for 77 people that starts in like a week.

Bonnie: Wait, what? You just bought your Bora Bora ticket yesterday?

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: That’s actually good for Sunny because sometimes she buys it two hours before.

Sunny: I usually do, because here’s what I believe, and first of all, there’s this historical belief, I think from like the 80s and 90s and when we were growing up, that if you didn’t buy a round-trip ticket, it was going to be incredibly expensive. And if you didn’t buy ahead of time, it was going to be incredibly expensive.

So let me tell you, Bonnie Koo, this is hot off the presses. I brought you into my group to talk to people about how to get a good deal or what to do with points and stuff like that on Bora Bora flights.

So listen, last night, it was literally midnight, my kid was asleep next to me, and I was searching to go to Bora Bora on Delta because my husband injured his back. He has sciatica, so he needs to lie down on flat things if he’s even going to be able to go. I think it’s maybe 50/50 if we’re lucky that he could get on a plane and still be able to walk. And as you know, he’s a strong athlete. So this is very rare.

But so yesterday, guess how much the flight, a direct flight from LA to Tahiti, was? Last night, with like one week to go.

Bonnie: Is this for business class?

Sunny: Well, it had the whole range. It brought up the whole range. It had regular and then business class. I’ll tell you the range. How much do you think the regular seat was, and how much do you think the business class was?

Bonnie: This was one way?

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: I don’t even know what the flight is, how much it costs, $1,000? No, it wouldn’t be 1,000.

Sunny: It was $300. $300.

Bonnie: For economy?

Sunny: And I didn’t buy the economy one because, again, my husband and I was having a hard time.

Bonnie: Also, you’re like six-two or something, so you need that.

Sunny: Yeah, I’m six feet tall. My husband is six-five. But I really kept going back and forth. I’m like, I’m just going to get the regular one because I don’t mean to lay down like he does. But then I was like, no, so I went ahead and I bought the other one.

So the first class lay down, French cuisine, you know, amazing, kind of like the best seats there are to get there, it was $3,000. And again, I get to choose from the whole range. There was 500 and 800. But I’m just saying, that whole BS of you have to book way in advance or you, I didn’t even really still want to do it right now because my husband really may or may not be going. And if he’s not going, this is not the flight I want.

This is the flight that works for him because he needs to lie down, and he needs to be up. He’s not actually planning on sleeping. He just needs to lay flat because that’s what he’s doing right now at work. And, you know, at home and in our garage, he just lays on the floor because his back hurts so much he has to lay down, but he doesn’t plan on sleeping. So anyway, this is just not the flight I would take if it was just me.

Bonnie: Sunny, I actually have to quit, which is something –

Sunny: Bye. So, dynamic, spontaneous lives are a good thing. Bye.

Bonnie: Bye.

Thanks so much for sticking around for that two-part, two-hour episode with my first coach, Sunny Smith. You know, one thing I wanted to reflect on and even just say, in general, is how special a coach/client relationship is. And, obviously, I’m always a client, like I’m always getting coached. In fact, today, the day I’m recording it, I had two coaching sessions, no joke.

One of them was for me, specifically where I was working through some things. I mean, there are always issues and things and challenges that always come up, unfortunately, right? And then the other session was about getting help with my coaching skills. That’s something I do from time to time. If I feel like I didn’t coach as well or felt like I could have done it better, there is coaching for that too.

Anyway, it is such a special relationship, and as a coach, it is my privilege, it is an honor, and it is so fun to see what my clients move on to do only because they changed one thought in their mind. One sentence like that is how powerful this work is. And like only one sentence in your head has to change for your life to change. And then you’ll just keep changing sentences as you go. And truly, that’s just the beginning.

All right, everyone, I will talk to you next week.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 1)

148: Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 1)

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Today’s episode is part one of a conversation with my very first life coach, Sunny Smith MD. I worked with her one-on-one for a whole year in 2018, so she’s here to give all of you the coach’s perspective on my personal development journey, where I was when we started working together, and how that’s progressed.

Sunny is the Founder and CEO of Empowering Women Physicians, a multi-million-dollar coaching business that places her among the top female entrepreneurs in the United States. She advocates for physician wellness through her comprehensive and collaborative coaching program, which seeks to change the culture of medicine through normalizing and humanizing the experience of being a physician.

Tune in this week to discover everything Sunny has taught me about holding belief for others, making serious money, and what’s possible when you truly believe in yourself. We’re moving from topic to topic, discussing how to share your value with the world, the power of just making a decision, and a lot more.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

Why you always have agency to choose your life, but most of us don’t exercise it.
How Sunny serves as an amazing example that you always have the ability to create money in any situation.
Why my number-one job as a coach is to hold belief for my clients.
How Sunny started out in coaching by saying YES.
Why it doesn’t matter what choice you make as long as you decide.
How to see the value you have to share with the world.
The multifaceted layers of thought entrepreneurs often struggle with around money.
Why, as a physician, you can make money any way you want to, so you shouldn’t do anything just for the money.

Listen to the Full Episode:

Featured on the Show:

Follow me on Instagram
Sunny Smith MD: Website | Instagram | Facebook | Podcast
The White Coat Investor
Peter Kim
Physician on Fire
The Tipping Point by Malcolm Gladwell
Defining Wealth for Women by Bonnie Koo

Read the transcript

Welcome to the Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast, you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey, everyone. So I hope you enjoyed that episode with my good friend Karen. And the next two episodes are kind of similar but different. They’re actually with my first life coach, Sunny Smith. I worked with her; well, we’ll talk about it, but basically, 2018 for a year. It was a year-long package. It was my first all-in experience with coaching. We talk a little bit during the podcast about how I do have some prior personal development experience, but this was my first one-on-one coach.

And basically, I thought it would be fun and interesting for all of you to kind of hear a bit about my journey from the coach, from her perspective, obviously. We kind of ramble from topic to topic, and I hope it makes sense. And it’s also very long, so we’re going to cut it into two parts because otherwise, it would be over two hours. And honestly, it would have been longer, but I had a call, a coaching call with my group program, Live Wealthy, and that basically required a hard stop. But yeah, we probably would have talked for another hour.

One thing I want to really highlight before you listen to our very long conversation is that it really reminded me that my job as a coach is to hold belief for my clients, meaning I just see their potential so easily and that they may need to borrow my belief in the beginning. And that was definitely the case with me and Sunny. And she’ll talk a bit about where I was when we started working together. And her belief is unshakable, and that is who she is for her clients.

I would say that’s her superpower is belief. Like she just believes so much, you believe it too. Right? And it really helped propel me to move forward with my coaching business and in many other areas of my life. And I am so grateful.

And obviously, we talk about money, and she is just an amazing example of what’s possible in terms of being able to create money, no matter what your situation is. And she is a physician, and so she does talk a bit about how - Actually, she talks frankly about the income she was making. She was severely underpaid at an academic institution, and how she went from that to making multiple seven figures. You got that; she makes a few million dollars a year, her company anyway.

And so I think it’s so inspiring. I think it’s such a great example to show all of you what’s possible when you truly believe that you can make money.

Bonnie: All right, everyone, I have a very special episode. I have my first coach here, and I can’t believe I haven’t had her before. So I asked her to come on to; actually, we haven’t planned at all what we’re going to talk about.

But the reason why I asked you is, well, first, I wanted people to meet you. And maybe we could talk a bit about my coaching journey and what you’ve seen because I think it’s really easy to see someone and think they were always like that. And just talk about my coaching journey in general because some of the people who listen are my clients, and it’s kind of fun to see what’s possible.

Sunny: I think that’s beautiful. I think it’s beautiful because it’s just like you’re a real human being. Every single one of us is a real human being. And I think the more and more you do this work, the more you realize everyone that you look up to or that is a mentor or anything is a real human being with lots of thoughts and feelings along the way, no matter what, always until the day that you die.

Bonnie: Yes.

Sunny: Welcome to the human experience.

Bonnie: Why don’t you introduce yourself?

Sunny: Yes. Okay, so my name is Dr. Sunny Smith. I am a family physician by training, and I spent my academic career at the UC San Diego School of Medicine. I was an academic community director, which meant being responsible for the personal and professional well-being of a subset, a sixth of the medical students. I was the director of the student-run free clinic. I absolutely thought I would stay there until I retired.

And then, you know, I got in this bike accident in Tahiti, had some forced stillness, and had a lot of reflection for the first downtime in my life because I never ever planned on having any downtime. And so that’s when I found coaching. I’d always, in hindsight, when you look back, you can find that you, like my bookshelf is full of personal development, right? And I’ve always been doing wellbeing, student wellbeing, physician wellbeing. But it just wasn’t in the same way as when I found coaching.

And so once I found coaching, it’s fascinating because I was completely removed from all of my work at that time because I had an accident that left me disabled for a few months. And then when I went back, all of a sudden with coaching in my mind, which is, you know, everything’s a choice, and you get to choose what’s in your life and what’s not in your life, and people can tell you what to do, but you get to decide what you’re going to do, it just gives you so much perspective, self-efficacy, agency, that I never really saw things the same.

And I just didn’t ever quite go all the way back into the type of life that I had been living, which is the type of life of, you know, an accelerated promotion for six years of work in three years’ time while I had a small child. And I thought that it was a good thing to do six years of work in three years’ time and have the university all but recognize that that was a thing that I had done.

So succeeding in that space, but by completely being a workaholic, right? As many of us are, and saying yes to everyone for all things. And I know this is a long introduction, but it kind of brings us to where we are and where you and I met is like, you know, at the graduation speech, the speaker, the medical student speaker, said, I just want to thank the deans and Dr. Smith for her leadership of yes.

And at that point, I was like, oh, that’s how I got into this. The leadership of yes. I was known as the leadership of yes, and I didn’t even know, right?

Bonnie: What does that mean, leadership of yes?

Sunny: I think it just meant like they would come to me with any project that they wanted to do. And I’d be like, yes, we can do that. Yes, we can do that. Just like I did with you. Like, yes, we can do that. Yet, you take on a lot of that responsibility yourself as a faculty advisor. As opposed to when you’re a coach, you tell the person yes, you can do it. Go do it, right?

And so I think women don’t have a lot of boundaries, the way we’re socialized. And so I just learned a lot about me, myself, the perspective, the life I’d been living. And I wanted to teach other women physicians. I felt like I had sort of seen behind the curtain, you know, in the Wizard of Oz, and I was like, you need to know what I know. You need to know this thing.

Because I’d been working on wellness for a really long time, and now that I know, just that we really do have the agency to choose our lives. No matter what the circumstances are, we still always have some choice, and most of us are not exercising it. I felt like everybody needed to hear that. And I felt so much better once I knew that, that I wanted to help people. So I started helping people one on one, I got trained as a coach, I created a podcast, created a website, and started working with people one-on-one.

When I was in training, this brings me to you. So when I was in training is when I ran into you, and I genuinely seriously did not ever plan on charging anyone that I was working with when I was in training. So I posted that I was doing free coaching because you were supposed to coach strangers. It didn’t really count if you coached someone you knew, right? Because you’d be biased or whatever.

And so you were amongst those first ten people. I coached you for six months for free. And then, because I know you, my life has changed forever, as well as yours, right? It’s a very reciprocal type of relationship, I think. And we’ve become friends, and we text all the time. And you’re just like a part of my life now for the past four or five years, four and a half years.

You just texted me the other day, and I texted back, and we recognized that it had been four and a half years since our journeys crossed.

Bonnie: I know, and I was like, what? I know and I was like, what?

Sunny: That was your reply.

Bonnie: Yeah, I was like, what? But basically, it’s how old Jack is, right?

Sunny: Yes, because you came to me, like many women physicians do. It’s like once you have, that happened to me in my life too, once you have a baby like you’re doing things a certain way. And then you bring a baby in the loop, and you’re like, oh, damn, things are going to be different now, aren’t they? And your brain has to sort of figure out how to be the new version of you. And so that’s when you came into my life.

Bonnie: Yeah, so I was going to tell people how we met. Yeah, so it was a Facebook post, the physician group over 40, I think, physician group for women over 40. Yeah, and I didn’t know who you were and saw that post. And the reason why I was so quick to respond to it is because I think a lot of people are like I don’t know what coaching is. And they might be like, I don’t know what that is, I’m not going to respond.

But I had done personal development work in my early 20s, and I knew life coaches at the time. And I had friends who were life coaches, and so when she offered free coaching, I was like, what? Because I know, maybe not what coaches charge now, but back then, I knew what they were charging, and I just wasn’t in a place to pay for that. So I was so excited to get free coaching, basically.

Sunny: And, A, you study money for a living, so you know this is a good investment if you don’t have to pay money, and you get to have this amazing service, right? And at that time, in particular, there really weren’t a significant number of physician coaches that existed. And so you knew coaching worked, but to see a physician offering coaching, it’s like there’s this automatic like, oh, you’re one of me. Let’s do this.

Bonnie: I don’t even know what we coached about in the beginning. Maybe you remember, I don’t remember.

Sunny: Of course I do.

Bonnie: You do?

Sunny: I feel like I remember all my clients. And I was even sending you replies. Like after the session, I would send you notes on what we coached on by email.

Bonnie: Five-page notes.

Sunny: Yeah, nothing has changed. I’m still the same Sunny, right? I always type a lot. I’m very verbose. I’m very loquacious ever since I was a little girl. But I remember you were concerned, of course, having a little baby. And you were a dermatologist, I think, four days a week. Does that sound right?

Bonnie: Mm-hmm.

Sunny: And you had been doing this blogging on the side that was Miss Bonnie MD.

Bonnie: For fun, yeah.

Sunny: Yeah, for fun. You were deciding, am I going to give this up? Because I’ve got a kid, I got stuff to do. People don’t realize that making a podcast like this takes time. And you have to find someone to watch your child, so you can do it.

It really does require a protected space and time, just like every other type of work that any human can do. And so you were sort of wrestling with do you do that And you wanted to better self-care for yourself.

Bonnie: Okay, now I remember now that you’re saying it. Right, I kind of came to a fork in the road. And it’s so funny. I was like, why did that fork happen? Oh yeah, probably because of Jack. Like, do I keep doing this? And if I do it, should I take it “seriously” and create a business out of it?

And I really didn’t know for a while. I felt like I was like a leaf in the wind about it. And I was like, eh. The idea of creating a business literally never occurred to me my whole life.

Sunny: You literally didn’t even have an LLC when I met you. You were receiving payments, right? And you had a blog, and you were doing things, but you hadn’t yet formed your LLC.

Bonnie: Yeah, it’s not a requirement.

Sunny: Oh, of course, it’s not required. But when you just said it hadn’t even occurred to me to form a business, I’m like, yeah, it legitimately hadn’t occurred to you to do that.

Bonnie: Yeah. And then, so, you know, the White Coat Investor was kind of the first big physician finance blogger. And now he’s branched into lots of other things. I met Peter Kim; we’ve all become friends with him. And I met him at the first White Coat Investor conference. Oh, you know he used to be anonymous.

Sunny: Yes. Yes, and I actually thought that that was lovely because his helping other physicians was never about his ego. And so that actually, you know, since I came from a free clinic background, I kind of actually liked and trusted that this person was out there to help, and it wasn’t about him or his ego at the beginning, right?

You know, I just didn’t know any physicians who were bloggers, entrepreneurs, or finance; that just was not my jam at all. And so, yes, I did know that he was anonymous. And it endeared me to him.

Bonnie: Yeah. And then he went public, and I remember he was scared, right?

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: And then I met him again at a money conference for money bloggers, podcasters, et cetera. And at that point, we had met a few times and maybe communicated. I don’t even remember the details. And I’ve told this story so many times, but it’s true. I was talking to him, and I talked to Leif Dahleen as well, the Physician on Fire guy, just about my conundrum. And I was so confused. And then Peter was like, go big or go home. He just was like, just make a choice. Decide.

Sunny: And notice how either way is totally fine. He’s not like, well, if you cared, you would do this. Or if you were mission-driven, you would do this. Or if you were more worthy or valuable, you would do this. He’s just like, it really doesn’t matter, just pick. Go big or go home. Just stop and stop torturing your soul with whether you should do this or not. Just decide to not do it, or go all in, jump with both feet, and let’s go.

Bonnie: Yeah, I don’t even remember. I just made a decision one day and told you. And I was like, all right, let’s do it.

Sunny: All right, I’m in. I was thinking about giving it up, and I’ve decided I’m all in.

Bonnie: Yeah, that’s how it started. That was –

Sunny: 2018, for sure.

Bonnie: Yeah, 2018. I’m trying to remember the timing. Yeah. You’re much better at these dates than me.

Sunny: Well, I know I started in 2018. Like it’s very obvious to me, right? That’s when I did my coach training. I got in my accident in 2017, and I did my coach training in 2018. So for sure, that’s when we met and started. And it was so beautiful. Once I had met you, I had already gotten to know many coaches and entrepreneurs. As you know, when you enter this space, you get to know all kinds of people in a world that you didn’t know anything about doing all different kinds of things.

And I was like, if they can do it because I talked to them, you know what I mean? Like, there are people with no college education and many other types of forms like killing it, helping people, like really, truly helping people, and making these things happen. And Bonnie’s like, you know, do you really think that I could help people?

Because I mean she had these role models as examples of people she knew well, as she mentioned, Physician on Fire, White Coat Investor, and Peter Kim. I’m like, there’s no women in this space, friend. There are no women really significantly trying to speak to the need of the woman, which is a very, very different need because you’ve been socialized in a very particular way about money. And we’re not really supposed to sit around and talk about money. And we’re just supposed to save money.

And we’re certainly not supposed to be thinking about, like, where’s our capital? And how are we going to leverage our capital? That’s just not a thing, right? It’s like, don’t buy the Louis Vuitton or something like that. You’re like, okay, whatever, that’s not helpful.

So it was just so obvious to me when I had spent some time with people who, again, did not have an audience like you had, did not have trust like you had. Like you were helping people for free in Facebook groups and with your blogs for years, and in person.

And like you are genuine, I’ve said recently at events and things we were at where like you are genuinely a connector in terms of like the Malcolm Gladwell book called Tipping Point. You know, where it’s like there are just certain types of people in society and roles we play. And you are someone who genuinely really likes to connect with other people and genuinely help them.

So whenever you’re in any crowd of any kind, you get to know the humans, and you text them and message them. And you’re like, hey, here’s how I’m making my life easier. Here’s a tip. Here’s how I do my Roth IRA. Here’s how I, whatever the things are. Like you’ve just texted me some various things recently, right? You just sent me your own planner that you just made, you know? I’m like, oh, I could buy one of those. You’re like, I’ll just send it to you. Because you’re just like, you’re always helping.

And so that kind of person, when you decide that you have a service that you want to charge for those who want to go deeper, I’m like, if you want to do this work, again, it’s a choice, go big or go home. I don’t care. I love you either way. If you want to do it, I know you can do this. I’m unshakable in my belief that you’re going to knock this out of the park, right?

And you didn’t have that yet. And so I think that’s what you could borrow from me because I had been immersed enough in a world that you weren’t in yet.

It’s like when you have a patient with diabetes, well, you’re a dermatologist, so it’d be a different disease class for you. But for me, it was one of my most common diseases as a family doctor, diabetes. But like the A1C is 13 or something when they’re diagnosed, they think they’re doomed. And they remember their aunt or uncle who lost their legs, and they’re going to take insulin.

I’m like, listen; this can get totally better. We’re going to get you some medicine, and this is going to get better. And I’m like 100% convinced because I have experience, right?

And so walking you through this, I was just like, you can totally do this. And not only do I know that you can do this, the most important thing is focusing on your experience of it as you go through it because that is the part that, just like med school, you didn’t even torture yourself in med school, but most people did in residency.

Like we torture ourselves, and then once we’re out, we’re like, wow, I was young, and things were so easy, and I didn’t have a family, and like didn’t have all these mortgage obligations and all these things. I didn’t realize how good I had it.

And so I think for people who are on their money journey, whether it’s an entrepreneur journey, whether your audience is like investing in real estate, or doing an entrepreneurial journey, or doing whatever their journey is to get to their fire, right, or their fast fire, it’s like they think they have to suffer to get on the way to that result and realize like this is the life. Med school is life. Residency is life. The way to fire is life. So it’s all about enjoying the journey and focusing on that part of it.

Bonnie: Yeah, so you said a lot of things. I just want to take a few. And the part about med school is true, and I don’t think I’ve talked about that. I feel kind of weird saying it like I didn’t think med school was hard. It’s not like I flamed it.

Sunny: I was not the same.

Bonnie: You thought the same?

Sunny: I was not the same. No, within like one, the first test I graduated from, I mean, all of us were smart, period. Like you don’t get into med school if you weren’t smart, you know what I mean? But so I was always smart ever since I was a kid, like in terms of school was pretty easy. I would goof off. I would be late, whatever. And I always did well.

And then, I got to med school, and I graduated in three years from college. And I felt like my first test, I studied more than my entire pre-medical career put together, and I got an 80, which, in a way, is fine, right? We always say in coaching, for example, B minus work. That was B minus work, but the amount of work it took me to get that 80. And the fact that I got what you call a Y, which is I got a note that was Y which is a marginal pass.

That’s a marginal pass. You almost got an F because below 80 was an F, like failing. And then all of a sudden, I was like, oh my God, I really don’t belong here. Like I was the last one in the class, my closest friends had all gone to ivy league schools, and I’d gone to a public school. I was like, holy shit, like, what? And so from there forward, I was just like, this is going to be hard, right? And I proved myself true.

Bonnie: Well, what’s interesting is, like, when I say it wasn’t hard, it doesn’t mean I got like straight A’s because I think I actually failed my first gross anatomy test. But the experience wasn’t bad.

Sunny: Oh my gosh, that’s so funny. I’m sorry I’m interrupting you, habit. But I just said I almost failed a test, and the narrative of it was that it was horrible. And you’re like, I did fail a test, and it was no big deal. Like, that’s such an example of coaching, right? And like the mindset matters the most.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: You actually failed, and you’re like, it didn’t matter.

Bonnie: I mean, it didn’t feel good, but the experience of med school wasn’t hard overall. Like there were definitely “hard” times. But I definitely have friends, and maybe you do, I’m sure, where it sucked the life out of them kind of like type of speaking. But I think what was helpful for me is I had a job before medical school, and I had a life before med school.

Sunny: I did too.

Bonnie: Oh, you did too?

Sunny: Yeah, I did too. I worked for two years in biotech. I did cancer research in signal transduction. But I still found the demands of medical school where I went to school, for me, and I’m a little obsessive, and so it was like all day, every day. It was like from the minute you woke up was med school to the moment you fell asleep with your books on your chest med school. It was like from the minute you wake up was med school to the moment you fall asleep with your books on your chest med school.

Bonnie: Yeah. This is totally random; I wasn’t planning on talking about this. But I actually had a part-time job at one point, but then I was like, no, this is too much. But the fact that I attempted to have a part-time job, isn’t that funny?

Sunny: That is funny. And because you’re a wealth person and a money person, that’s what your people listen for, right? Like I got financial aid. And then, for the summer, I worked for the free clinic for the first summer. And we got a small amount of money. I want to say $1,200 or something. And my rent, I think, was probably $800 to live in this teeny little studio. And so the summer is a little long. I had to hock my jewelry like I pawned my jewelry to pay my rent and stuff.

And so, like, yeah, but during the school year, like, that’s how much I didn’t have money or resources or places to obtain enough for rent and food before the next financial aid came in the fall. And I never would have thought of working because there’s just no way. And in fact, we have a rule that says you can’t work at the school because that’s where I ended up advising students.

Bonnie: No, it was like a very short-lived job. And I remember I had told some coworkers I was going to quit, and then the manager was furious that she didn’t know or that I was about to quit. Anyway, I haven’t thought about that in a long time. It doesn’t matter.

But anyway, what did we get sidetracked on? Oh, because you were talking about -

Sunny: It’s not med school hard, yeah.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: Entrepreneurship and building wealth are not med school hard. It really isn’t.

Bonnie: Yes.

Sunny: But it’s the emotions of it that are different because med school, if you keep showing up, like no matter how hard you think it is, 99% of doctors, med students, who get admitted to medical school, get out the other side with their MD or DO. Like that’s just the numbers, that’s just the way it is. You’re going to get out, pretty much. I mean, it’s pretty rare of all the over a thousand students I advised it’s very rare for someone not to get out.

Bonnie: Yeah, like, one person in my class didn’t come back after the first year. But I think that was it.

Sunny: Yeah. But when you look at building wealth, or if you look at entrepreneurship, or if you look at investing and the types of things that you talk about, it’s like those are not 99% things. They’re not. So it’s like a whole different thing. It’s a whole different set of skills that we need to learn.

Bonnie: Yes, it is. And I think in some ways, in many ways, actually, I’m sure you’ve seen this, like because of our perfectionistic tendencies and all the socialization, not just as women, but around money, especially debt.

Sunny: That’s a big one.

Bonnie: It is challenging for higher earners, for doctors, I think because that’s who I know. And now I remember what I wanted to say. Sunny, her superpower is belief in other people. And so yeah, in the beginning, I had to borrow her belief. And I think that’s fun. I think with clients, like when I work with clients or just talk to people, it’s so funny now that I’m a full-on entrepreneur, Sunny, I’m like, you should do this, you should do that. And they’re not even thinking about business.

But, for example, I remember I was texting you because we both had our hair done recently. Sunny just got her hair done today, I got my hair done last week, and it is like an all-day thing for both of us.

Sunny: Yes, yes.

Bonnie: Because I got my roots done, I got balayage, a haircut, anyway. And it’s in New York City, and I’ve been going with the same person for a while. So she teaches other hair people through like L’Oreal and Redken, and No Sweat, so it’s like legit. And then she read my book, and so she was just telling me.

Sunny: She read your book.

Bonnie: Yeah, I told her. I told her about it.

Sunny: Yes, I know. But I’m just saying like you just have to pause for a moment. I’m going to pause you. I know I’m interrupting again, I apologize, but I have to because we don’t recognize ourselves. When I first met you, one of the first things you told me was you wanted to write a book. And then we’re like, so should I do it now? Should I build a course? Should I do a podcast? Should I do this? Should I do that?

But the first thing you wanted to do was write a book. And now you just told me like it was normal like it was just in passing. And you weren’t even going to pause there. Oh, my hairdresser read my book that I wrote on wealth for women. And not only did I make my dreams come true and make it real and make a book, I tell people about it, and they actually read it. And like hairdressers can read it.

Okay, now you can continue your story. But that’s pretty amazing that from the moment I met you, you had this like, it seemed like a pie in the sky type dream to you then. You really did execute it. And you really did set the dream sort of on the back shelf for a little bit while you worked on the finances and the other things about being an entrepreneur. And you came back to it, right? And you didn’t abandon it, and you made it real. So I just want to say kudos for that and congratulate you on that.

Bonnie: You’re really good at reminding me that was one of the first things I talked about. And it’s funny because I even had like a book proposal-ish. Like I was writing it, I was thinking about a table of contents. It was a very different book, like the idea.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: It was very different. So the book I wrote now, so it’s good that I waited because this version, I love.

Sunny: Yes, that’s what we believe, right? Is that you were never meant to write it then because it would have been an absolutely tactical book. And the thing is, you can hand someone a blueprint, and if they don’t believe it’ll work for them, they’ll never take action. And so you decided to work on helping them believe it could work for them. And so it was always meant to be this version.

And so you aren’t behind. You weren’t late. This is when it was meant to come out so that it would be the book that it is so that you could sit with your dresser in New York City and just tell me like normal a few days later, “So anyway, so I was talking to my hairdresser, and she was reading my book.”

Like do you think most of your podcast listeners can say that? I was going to my hairdresser in New York City, and she was reading my book. It’s just badass. I’m just saying.

Bonnie: Oh, thank you, Sunny.

Sunny: Yeah, okay, so go ahead.

Bonnie: We were talking, and it made her really think about money. I was like, how much money do you want to make? And then she’s like, well, I think I had 200 in mind. I’m like, why not higher? So we’re just having this conversation, you know, because I want women to think more. And then when she said 200, I’m like, 200 is a good time. Because, you know, when I was a doctor, I made whatever, right, almost 300k. And I was like, but you really want more. Especially in New York City, I’m like, you really want to maybe go for a million. That’s what I told her.

And then her eyes didn’t like to boggle because she had read my book, so I think she kind of was noticing that she’s allowed to want a million dollars a year. Anyway, I don’t want to go too much into detail, but I told her I was like, because obviously, what she was doing with hairdressing and teaching, it’s like a direct time/effort transaction.

And so because we’re an online business, I kind of have that mindset of what they could do. And I was like, you should create a course. This is what I told her. I was like, think of people like me, who still want to have good hair when we’re home. I don’t know if you’re the ideal client because you’re very low maintenance, right?

But I was like, I don’t know how to blow dry my hair. I don’t know how to use the products. I have this blow-dry protector thing, and I was like, how do I use it? I’m like, where should I apply it? She’s like, oh, it’s midland. I’m like, see. I was putting it everywhere.

Sunny: Teach people what you know. There are so many ways.

Bonnie: Yeah, like, these are the products you use. This is how to use it. Like have demonstrations, and then you could do like a Q&A call once a month. Like I told her what to do a Q&A call once a month. Like I told her what to do.

Bonnie: And there are so many options. And you could also have her have people who work under her, right? Like there are so many ways, and it’s not just one way that she could do it. And you’re like, and by the way, you can invest in real estate. And by the way, you can, right?

There are so many ways if people are open to, for instance, reading your book and seeing, oh, there are so many ways. It doesn’t have to all be just one way. like, and by the way, you can invest in real estate. And by the way, you can, right, there’s so many ways if people are open to, for instance, reading your book and seeing, oh, there are so many ways. It doesn’t have to all be just one way.

And that applies even not just to someone who doesn’t have the income they want. It applies to people who have a life that they love, right? You don’t have to despise your life or be unhappy or feel stuck, which a lot of us do, right, in medicine. But you can actually be really happy and still be like, oh, there’s like this whole other set of things in the world that people do that I’ve never, ever thought of doing. Just because it’s not something we talk about in medicine.

Bonnie: Well, I think doctors were like in a bubble.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: We’re in a big bubble. Oh, I just realized, speaking of the book, I don’t talk about the book that much anymore, as if it doesn’t exist.

Sunny: Right.

Bonnie: Because there are people listening to this who don’t even know I have a book.

Sunny: No, it’s called, well, tell them about your book.

Bonnie: It’s called Defining Wealth For Women. And if you go to my website and click on it, there’s a link for the book. You can see it, and it’s on Amazon. But yeah, actually, one of my friends was like, you stopped talking about the book as if it’s done.

Sunny: Exactly. That book is going to outlive you.

Bonnie: I know, crazy, right?

Sunny: So there’s no reason, and because new people stumble on us all the time. Like you know that I have a podcast that I think I recorded two episodes last year. I think I might have had one or two the year before. I’m in the top 1% of podcasts on the planet because new people keep stumbling on it, right? Or a friend tells a friend.

And so the same with your listeners, they will have a friend who comes into a financial crisis. She’s going to get divorced, right? Her house just went down in value, right? Her stock market stuff just went down. Like she’s going to have a panic in her life, and someone’s going to say, go get Defining Wealth for Women by Bonnie Koo, or go check out Bonnie Koo’s podcast, right?

Because where are they going to go? There are not that many places, right? I mean, they could refer them to a handful of places, but you are one of the places that people can go.

And so I think to continually remind yourself that there are new people having new, real distress in their life who is going to be like your hairdresser who wants to read this book. And even rereading things can be helpful because you’re a different person when you see them. Do you know what I mean? You could be like, hey, even if you read my book, go reread it. In chapter two, I do this. I know you read it, but did you act on it? Right?

Bonnie: Yeah. Well, I have a, like, every chapter has like a worksheet basically, like questions, like assignments.

Sunny: Yeah.

Bonnie: And so my hairdresser actually mentioned that. She’s like, I need to go back. It’s like a course. I’m like, oh, I created a PDF workbook. You can just download it from my website. It’s the same questions; it’s just that they can download it.

Sunny: Yeah, so people should go to your website right now and go find the book and then download the PDF.

Bonnie: Yes.

Sunny: Yes, they should.

Bonnie: Yes, they should.

Sunny: And then go do the workbook, just like the hairdresser.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: Right? Because here’s when you know that you really believe in what you’re doing, because you used to ask me at the beginning, you were like, well, how do you tell people about your coaching? I’m like, I mean, I believe in it like I believe in antibiotics in terms of it being an effective intervention. I’m like a billboard for coaching because just like you’re a billboard for why women need to build wealth.

You just can’t. If you walk around your life and tell people when you’re not even trying to sell them something, you’re just like, hey, listen, here are some things I know that you might want to know. That’s how you know that it’s just genuine that you really think someone should download your PDF. And when you really believe that, then you just show up in the world like, listen people, download the PDF because if you have not done this work, you probably have a lot more work to do.

And it’s not like your way is the right way. It’s just a way that many of us are not thinking of every single day, right? And even me, really, I mean, you know, I’ve done so much of this coaching work over the past five years, had so many coaches, done so many things. And I opened your planner, and I’m like, wow, I’m really going to do these. I brought it to the hairdresser today. Why are we all about hairdressers? As you said, I’m very low maintenance. This is not a normal conversation.

I brought it with me to work on it while I was there because I was like, wow. It’s not just reading the question. It’s reading the question and making your own mind answer it and see what it comes up with, right? Because the questions are just there to see what does come up for you. What are your defaults? And then, when you’re not living on default, what do you want that to look like?

And so, you know, my life and yours look so different than when we first met. As I mentioned, I thought I’d stay and retire at 65. And now I’m like, I do such meaningful work that’s very similar in some ways to what I did inside of the university. But I built my own table, and I do it from the outside, and I do it in my own way. And nobody gets to tell me what to do.

And I do it when I want, where I want. I still do it a lot, right? Because I really like my work and I have certain tendencies. It’s like I’m working till late tonight with women physicians.

And I just think it can be so different than the way it is right now. Not that different is better, but just if you could choose anything. And then part of that question is like, if you had that fast fire number, if you had your fire number, if you were at the fire, what would you be doing? That sort of thing. And then the question is, why are you not doing it now?

So like, I am fire, right? I don’t have to work. And so people think, like, what would you do if you won the lottery? What would you do if you were financially independent? And I learned I was financially independent once I learned things from you and friends, right, and colleagues to go actually find out what my financial independence number was from a financial planner that I had never, ever, ever talked to a financial planner in my whole life. I think I was like 45.

And I went, I’m sure you remember this day. And she was like, yeah, you don’t have to work anymore. I was like, what? What? And it’s not like, again, I started my academic career. I made $80,000 a year. So it’s not like I was a dermatologist.

Bonnie: Crazy.

Sunny: I wasn’t a dermatologist. I wasn’t an ophthalmologist. I wasn’t orthopedic. I wasn’t a neurosurgeon. I was an academic primary care physician who chose on purpose to take a pay cut to go work at a free clinic, right? And then I went up to 125 after years and years and years, and then I went up. But we just, you know, lived within our means. That’s actually a lot of money.

The physicians who say that’s not a lot of money, I get it. I get where you’re coming from. I get that we all have six figures of debt, and I did, too, when I started. But we have to keep ourselves like, I mean, I mentioned earlier, pawned my jewelry to pay for my rent. And so we have to remember most of the country doesn’t live on $100,000 a year.

And so if we’re telling ourselves that that’s not very much, right, it’s just an interesting way to look at it to remind ourselves. And so we have to remember most of the country doesn’t live on $100,000 a year. And so if we’re telling ourselves that that’s not very much, right, it’s just an interesting way to look at it to remind ourselves.

And so, yeah, we had enough because we had paid off our house, and so we didn’t have a lot of expenses. We had enough. And so I really am doing exactly what I would do if money wasn’t the motivator. And so I think for your clients to really try that exercise. In fact, you and I were texting about a podcast today.

Bonnie: Yeah, I was going to mention that.

Sunny: If you had one year to live, what would it look like? That’s a whole other question that you can talk about in a second. But really, if you were financially independent, what would you do? What would your life look like? Because you still want mission and meaning and purpose. And then the question really is, why are you not doing that now, or at least getting a little bit closer to it now? So go ahead.

Bonnie: Oh, and then like, one of the questions that I sent you this morning was, what would you stop doing?

Sunny: Yes. So you can either do if you are financially independent is one. Or you could do, which seems even more urgent if you really only had one year to live. Or for physicians, often it would be like if you had six months because that’s like a hospice diagnosis, right?

And the thing about six months is it seems so short that you think that you would be, okay, if I really was on hospice, things would look very different. And the thing about six months is it seems so short that you think that you would be, okay, if I really was on hospice things would look very different.

I think that the thing about a year is it’s like it’s long enough that you still might want to do some things, right? You wouldn’t just be like, well, I’m going to get my affairs in order so that I can go, right? It’s like long enough. Okay, let’s make this year count. What would that look like? What would you stop doing is probably the easiest question for women physicians to answer, right?

Bonnie: Love it.

Sunny: Because what do you want to start doing or what do you want to do, I think, is hard. We get paralyzed because we really don’t even know. We don’t have the skill or the typical brain pattern of what do you want to do. Like I have an exercise where we ask people to dream and what results they want to create. And so many people are like, I have no idea.

But what they do know is what they don’t want. They don’t want to work this hard. I don’t want to work nights. I don’t want to work weekends. I don’t want to try it at home. Okay, so what would you stop doing? That’s easier. Just start right there.

Bonnie: Yeah, and then so many of our clients believe that they can’t stop those things.

Sunny: All lies.

Bonnie: With my clients, it’s because of money, right? They’re like, well, I can’t because of –

Sunny: Yeah, I mean, Bonnie, I just did something unusual that we never do, where we bring all – We do orientation in my program. And so we allowed anyone to join our orientation program. So we had 1200 people join our orientation program.

And I would say the most common thing we coached on, we probably coached like 20 hours live that week, was I want to blah, blah, blah, but I can’t because of money. It all came up like I don’t want to work so hard. I don’t want to take calls. I don’t want to have to see people so fast. I don’t want to da, da, da. And we’re like, okay, then don’t. And they’re like, but. And the answer was always but money.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: It’s like, really? So it’s just that that mental construct really traps us. And if that’s what’s trapping us, then it’s really up to us to liberate ourselves and be like, am I really, you know, what’s the price on your life? Just tell me, you know? How much is it going to take? What’s the price for you to sacrifice your happiness, your well-being, and the well-being of your family? How much is that worth?

There’s some kind of movie, right, about a guy, George Clooney, who flies around firing people. And yet there’s some kind of saying that he has to the people. It’s like, at what point were you willing to trade your life for the salary? And then he’s firing people, and he’s like, you can have your life back.

Bonnie: I don’t know that movie, but that sounds cool. So just like continuing on what you just said, one of the things Brooke Castillo said about, and this is not insulting anyone, but she gets a lot of flack for people to think she’s so money focused and only cares about the money. She’s like, actually, it’s the opposite. And then she’s like, and if you’re miserable in a job, but you’re working for money, she’s like, you’re more obsessed with money.

She’s like, I would never make money in a way I didn’t want to make, or I would suffer. And that sounds like that could be jarring to some people listening to this, but it is something to think about, right? Like I am not bringing home my derm salary right now. I know that I will. And so we have less money in terms of income coming in, but I wouldn’t trade it to go back to work or to do something else.

I trust that it’ll happen, and, yeah, it requires me to, like, do some, we invest in things. It’s not like we, you know. But yeah, at this point, I wouldn’t trade it. You know, I could immediately make more money by getting a full-time derm job, for sure. My license is expired, so that’d be hard.

Sunny: It won’t be that hard. It’s not hard to get a license, right?

So I think that that’s the freeing point, though, is that every single one of us, if we do have that pause like, I can always make money as an, insert specialty here, always. Always. There are so many ways to make money as a for you dermatologist. For me, family medicine. I can make money anywhere all the time. We have so much privilege.

You know how many women, and you know this because you wrote a book on it, literally. We have so much more economic privilege and power than 99% of women who have walked this planet. We can have bank accounts and credit cards. We have education, we have high potential income, and we have multi-million dollar brains based on our potential income. Like if we get injured, right, what are the damages? They’re very high because of our potential income per year, times the number of years we’re going to live.

So we invest in our brains, we have multi-million dollar brains, and it’s just an asset, right? Even if we are in the class where it’s called high earner, not rich yet, right, HENRY, because we earn a lot but maybe we haven’t saved a lot because we have debt and we are going to choose to pay off our student loans perhaps.

Bonnie: No, don’t do that. Okay.

Sunny: I know. Listen to Bonnie Koo and leverage your capital. When I met Bonnie, Peter, Kenji, and Lettie, I had no debt. And they were like, your money is in money jail. Why are you living inside your money jail? Why don’t you leverage some of your capital? I was like, I don’t want to leverage capital, I don’t want debt. Shortly after, I had millions in real estate that I had purchased that were investment properties.

Anyway, just because once you learn and then within months of doing that, you know, I had earned more than my annual academic salary, right, just by leveraging the debt that I had to invest in real estate. I was like, holy shit, how did no one teach us about this? Sorry, I swore on your podcast.

But yeah, so I think that there can be that sense of safety. We create our own sense of safety, right? You know that because safety is a feeling, right, and there is no circumstance in which we can feel safe unless we’re cultivating that on purpose, right?

Because you know people, and I know people whose circumstances of their finances are negative hundreds of thousands of dollars, that are zero, that are positive hundreds of thousands, that are positive millions, that still don’t feel safe and still feel scarcity around money. Like yes, it really, truly is possible to have millions of dollars and feel like it’s not enough.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: People don’t believe that. It’s 100% true. I know many, many people, and I’m sure you do too, with millions of dollars, and the feeling is always not enough.

Bonnie: And then they’re also scared of losing it all because they do have millions.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: Then it just turns to afraid of losing it all. But yeah, it’s a hard concept. I still have to coach myself on this continuously, that once I have a certain amount of money, then I’ll feel better.

Sunny: No, you won’t.

Bonnie: I’m wrong, I know.

Sunny: I said, no, you won’t.

Bonnie: But if you think about the journey of a physician, right? You go from a resident, and it’s funny, I actually think residents should stop saying that they’re poor because they still make a decent salary compared to the rest of the country. And I think that mindset that they’re poor, anyway, that’s a whole other podcast.

And then you become an attending, and your income increases dramatically, but I think in the beginning you’re like, oh wow, I have all this. But it quickly goes away, and they’re like, oh my God, I don’t make enough or whatever.

So I think one of the things that are hardest for my clients, including me, is to uncouple that. Like an amount of money does not create safety and security. And I think in the beginning, people have a really hard time with it or don’t believe me, right? Because we really think a certain amount of money is what’s going to create safety and security.

Sunny: Yeah, well, let me introduce them to the human brain and psychology, right? I mean, it’s called hedonic adaptation, right? Like, it’s just normal. Your brain can’t continue to feel the same way about something when it first gets it, then when you’ve been in it for days and weeks and months and years. You have a hedonic adaptation to whatever.

You used to think when you were like 20 and wanting to be a doctor. You would definitely be over the moon if you ever got to be a doctor. And then you get to be a doctor, and you’re like, well, this kind of sucks. Isn’t everyone a doctor? I mean, what’s so special about it? And then you try and hide it because you don’t want people to even know you’re a doctor sometimes.

You can’t walk around every day and just be like, Hi, I’m a doctor. This is so amazing, right? It’s the same with money in the bank. I have a million dollars in the bank. This is so amazing. You just get used to it, and it’s like you just recalibrate there. And just know that is always going to happen.

Bonnie: Speaking of that, like literally when, you know, because I didn’t get into dermatology the first time, and I remember like, maybe I probably don’t remember it, but I remember thinking like, oh my god, as soon as I get into dermatology everything’s going to be amazing. Or it’s not even amazing. I think I was like, my life will be complete. I think I really believed that.

Sunny: Yes, I’ll be a dermatologist. And since it took you three times, it was like, no. And you were like derm or bust, which is because again, as a former advisor of med students who had to advise people going into derm, it’s very unusual to apply three times and still, on that third time, have someone be with the mindset it’s derm or bust because every advisor they have is going to be like, let’s make a backup plan. Let’s make a backup plan.

But I think that just goes to show you, right, that you are a person who’s very determined, that you know what you want, and you go make it happen. Right? And so that’s what you did. And you thought it would make you happy. And it will be the same with the million dollars, with the $10 million, right? The numbers just keep getting bigger.

Bonnie: Just more zeros, as I say. There are just more zeros.

Sunny: I know.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Sunny: But we’re supposed to be teaching people how to make wealth here, not to believe they don’t need wealth.

Bonnie: That’s true, yeah. You guys can’t see me on video, so obviously, on a podcast you have a mic. So I used to have a semi-fancy contraption where you have a boom arm which attaches to your desk, and then it, anyway, it’s like fancy and steady. Jack broke it.

Sunny: That’s what happened.

Bonnie: And then I have this like stand that’s not stable. Anyway, Sunny can’t see it, but look, it’s on an Amazon box right now.

Sunny: Oh, yes.

Bonnie: And it’s empty, so I keep knocking it over. So people listening might hear these random noises.

Sunny: Well, I’m sure that your podcast producer will take out the noises.

Bonnie: He will attempt, yes. But yeah, I was recording another podcast today, and I kept hitting it, and then the box would move. Anyway, so it’s been jimmy-rigged, and I probably should get a new boom. And then there’s a foam covering, again, people can’t see, and Jack ripped it. So I still have it, but there’s like a rip in part of it, so I try not to talk in that. Anyway, just, you know.

Sunny: Real life, this is the glamour of being an online entrepreneur, right?

Bonnie: With a five-year-old.

Sunny: Exactly, with a five-year-old. I think people have this fantasy because there might be a dermatologist listening, right? Or a woman physician of any specialty listening and being like, I mean, that sounds beautiful, you just got to escape the derm. A, you wanted the dermatology life. Then it wasn’t what you thought it would be, so then you escaped that. And now you get to work from home and do what you want when you want?

And you’re like, listen. I know that sounds good, but there’s a small child around me all the time. I have an Amazon box mic. I have a ripped foam cover. It’s like, no matter what the thing is that we want like you want to go on vacation, and you get there. Like you just came to Puerto Rico, right? And then you get to the vacation, and you’re like, yeah, I’m still me. And my family is still my family, and we’re on vacation.

And so just think of your future life as that, right? Like it’s going to continue to be that, so we might as well learn to enjoy it now. We just recently had a coaching session two days ago in my program where someone said, would your 80-year-old self be mad at you? Would they be throwing their dentures at you? Would they be throwing their walker at you for what you’re about to do right now and the decisions you’re about to make right now about your life?

And it was regarding money because there were people who had really very significant things going on in their life, and they were not going to give themselves any space or time because blank, blank, blank, insert the dot, as I said earlier, money.

No matter how significant the major life event thing was, they weren’t going to XYZ because of money. And so they can use that. And it was actually Latifat who said it, who is a money coach as well. But she was like, so this is going to be a new frame of reference for me now, is like, would your 80-year-old self throw her walker at you right now for what you’re about to do? If so, it’s don’t do that just for money. It’s never a good enough reason.

Bonnie: No, totally. I had a client, and it was less about the money because there’s just so much stuff as women. Like her husband was dying or had a terminal diagnosis. And she wanted to take time off, obviously.

Sunny: Yes.

Bonnie: And she was afraid to ask for it. It wasn’t so much a money situation specifically, although she was worried about having no income for three months because I think anyone, that’s probably their first thought like, oh my God. Even though she had an emergency fund for that, she was afraid to ask that they would say no or they’d be pissed.

And anyway, it worked out. They asked, and they were like, of course, and blah, blah, blah. And just to think that maybe she wouldn’t have done that, you know?

Sunny: Mm-hmm.

Bonnie: She wouldn’t be able to be home.

Sunny: Yeah, these are like the important life questions, right? And if money is not for that, what is it for, really? And there’s kind of, I think, as you’re alluding to, two things that keep us from doing the things we want. One is our beliefs about finances. And two is our belief about what other people are going to think.

Bonnie: Yes. Yeah, money is so multifaceted. I used to struggle with this a lot with other entrepreneurs, if another coach made more money than me. I’m like, oh, I’m not as good as them. Like, I really made it a personal worth issue. And I still do a little bit, you know, my brain is always going to go there. But it’s much, much better now.

And so, anyway, we could talk forever about people and their money issues.

Sunny: Yeah, well, that’s kind of what your whole podcast is about.

Bonnie: It’s true.

All right, so that was part one of my two-hour conversation with Sunny Smith; well, obviously, I hope you liked it. And next week, we’re going to talk about basically what happened after I hired her in terms of paying her. Because when I first worked with her, I didn’t pay her. She was in coach certification. And then I started paying her, and then you’re going to learn a bit about how my beliefs about what I was able to do or what I could do when it comes to money and my life, and how they shifted dramatically and how, well, the rest is history. See you next week.

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Wealthy Mom MD with Bonnie Koo | Pursuing New Friendships in Adulthood with Karen Leitner

147: Pursuing New Friendships in Adulthood with Karen Leitner

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This week, I’m welcoming one of my besties on the show! Karen Leitner is a primary care doctor and certified life coach who helps women physicians feel better and happier in their lives, and she’s here today to talk about all things friendship and to shed some light on the real Bonnie.

Pursuing new friendships in adulthood can be really challenging, and while we think it should be easy, it takes real bravery and effort. This is how my friendship with Karen came to be, and she’s excited to talk about our friendship and to tell you some behind-the-scenes things about me that you may not know.

Join us this week for a very special friendship episode where Karen and I dive deep into making friends as adults, and why we liken this process to dating. We’re exploring the things that annoy us about each other and why it’s so important to normalize this in friendships, why we think it’s great that we’re out of our friendship honeymoon phase, and Karen is also sharing five things about me that you might not know.

Learn more about Live Wealthy, an exclusive coaching program designed for successful women who want to be confident.... and be rich.

What You'll Learn from this Episode:

How Karen and I met.
Why it’s so challenging to make new friends as adults.
The importance of being abundant and brave about pursuing new friends.
Our thoughts on the things we do that annoy each other.
The value of spending time with like-minded people.
5 things you might not know about me.
What the honeymoon phase of our friendship looked like, and why we think it’s now over.

Listen to the Full Episode:

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Karen Leitner: Website | Instagram | Facebook
Sunny Smith
The Gap and The Gain by Dan Sullivan

Read the transcript

Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast, you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey, everyone. So I think you're in for a treat today. Today is a very different type of episode. It's what I call a friendship episode. So I actually have one of my besties on the show. And she's actually a coach as well, but we're not talking about that so much. But actually, it was her idea to do this. She just thought it would be fun to chat on the podcast about our friendship and tell you a bit about me behind the scenes.

And it's funny because she was like, “I'm going to tell them five things about you that maybe they don't know.” And at first, I was like, “What are you going to say?” But I think you're going to enjoy the conversation and hear me a bit more casually, although I do my best to be casual on the podcast. I like to think of this podcast as I'm talking to you as if we’re in the coffee shop, except you're not there to respond.

But also we talk a bit about just how friendships are, not that it's different, but when you're past things like college, medical school, graduate school, residency, you know, things where you're kind of seeing the same people every day, it makes it harder to make new friends. And I think a lot of us, especially as women, think it should be easy to make friends. But you need to make an effort. And we talk a bit about that and how it's totally normal, and how I liken making new friends to dating, and how that can bring up a lot of stuff.

And so I talk about my struggles, my thoughts about when I make new friends. And anyway, I think you guys will get a kick out of it. And also, I'm just excited for you to meet one of my best friends. And, as I said, she's also a coach. And she's such a great coach, and she coaches on something completely different. And so for those of you listening who might be, I don't want to say struggling, but, you know, so she coaches specifically women physicians, and her program is called Feel Better.

So it's very specific. And so because a lot of us, female physicians, are struggling. You know, there are so many demands on us, right? Like we are expected to be perfect at work, and then we have charting at home. And if you have kids, it's a whole other set of things. And, you know, our partner is at home and all that kind of stuff, and it can be really overwhelming.

And, as you know, the system of medicine is very unforgiving. It's changed, and basically, a lot of us are unhappy. So she helps people with that. And so if that is you, you definitely should get in touch with her. Anyway, here it goes. An episode with me and one of my best friends.

Bonnie: So today's a fun episode. I have one of my really good friends on the podcast. And so I thought it'd be fun to have, I guess, a more casual conversation between friends. And anyway, that's what we're going to talk about today. We have a casual outline, but we'll see where the conversation goes.

So why don't you introduce yourself?

Karen: Okay, I'm Karen Leitner. I'm Bonnie's friend. I am a primary care doctor, I am a certified life coach for women doctors, and I'm the mom of three girls and a dog.

Bonnie: Well, who do you coach? Let’s talk about that.

Karen: Oh, right. I coach women doctors who are struggling in some way to feel fulfilled and happy in their lives. I hesitate to say burnout because that's such a charged word in the medical community. But just women who feel like they'd like to feel differently in their lives. From my own personal experience of going through burnout and then coming back and creating a life that felt much better to me and being so helped by the coaching tools, I decided to spread the help.

Bonnie: Spread the happiness, yeah.

Karen: Yeah, spread the happiness and spread the honesty just about what we actually go through and how life really is, as opposed to all the fake things we project in medicine about; being super stoic, and robots, and strong, and not needing help and all those pressures that we face. So that's what I do.

Bonnie: Yeah, I think the name of your coaching program is brilliant. It's called Feel Better.

Karen: Thanks, Bonnie.

Bonnie: I mean, it's so simple, and it’s to the point. So yeah, basically, you help female physicians feel better.

Karen: I do. That's what I do.

Bonnie: Also, I thought it was funny that you introduced yourself as Bonnie's friend first.

Karen: Well, that's the first thing on my CV, Karen Leitner, Bonnie’s friend, then all the other things. I just feel like I'm in your living room with all your beloved people who listen to you every week, and I'm just who am I? This rando. Well, I'm your friend.

And I'm also just, I'm here to shed some light on the real you, right? Because I think sometimes it's fun to see behind the scenes what someone's really like. also just, I'm here to shed some light on the real you, right? Because I think sometimes it's fun to see behind the scenes of what someone's really like.

Bonnie: Yeah. So I think what we should first do is how did we meet?

Karen: You don't remember, do you?

Bonnie: I mean, I remember - Okay, this is what I remember, and I'm sure you could fill in the gaps. I remember you messaging me. Was it Facebook Messenger?

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Bonnie: And asking me to guest coach in your program.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Okay, so I got it right.

Karen: Yeah, that's what I did. I was so scared. I think that's one thing, is like because you have a lot of followers, because you've been doing your business for a long time, and because I think I heard about you in the coaching community, and because my coach was Sunny Smith, who was your coach, who I think is also going to be a guest on your podcast, it was like, I'm this unknown, and I'm reaching out to you. And it felt scary to me.

And then you were super nice. You were just like, “Oh yeah, hey, sure. Cool, let's do it.” And I was like, “What?” So I think it's interesting, sometimes just, like, I bet people don't realize how friendly you are and how down to earth you are in real life. And how not, you know, you're just Bonnie. So that's how we met. I was super intimidated by you.

And then, do you remember? So you did my program, you came, you guest coached, I don't know, we like messaged here and there. And then I ran a retreat at Miraval, a small retreat, and you were like, “Oh, I'm going to come.” And I was, “Ah!” It was like, oh no. I think that was the scariest part of the retreat.

And then you were actually really helpful to me when we were there because you were like, “Why are you so anxious about everything?” I was like, “I don't know.” You were like, “Just sit back and just listen. Stop talking too much.” I was like, “Okay.” And it was so helpful.

Bonnie: And this is funny. How did we make the transition from Facebook Messenger friends to texting friends? Because that's a big transition in the friend world.

Karen: I don’t know how we did that. I have no idea. Should I look back and see if there's a paper trail? It’s kind of fun to look at sometimes.

Bonnie: No, I don't think we need to go and get the official data. But at some point, we started texting.

Karen: Well, someone has to be a little brave, right? And so I think that's part of what we wanted to talk about, is like it can be hard to make friends when you're adults already. You're like. I don't know. Like, we can't ask for a play date. And so what do we do? I really don't remember. But someone has to be a little brave because you're always a little worried that you might get rejected, right?

And it was probably me because that just seemed like something I would do. But I don't know. And it was probably me, because that just seems like something I would do. But I don't know.

Bonnie: I pursue people too.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: But I do think of making friends, and it's not even like our age, but once you're just not in like college or med school or residency because you're just not around the same people all the time, it's like dating. Like you basically have to ask someone on a date. And maybe you don't say, “Hey, do you want to be friends?” Maybe you don't say that. But yeah, there has to be some “pursuing” involved. And yeah, you can face rejection. That's definitely true, just like in dating.

The way I think about it now is, yeah, I used to be really scared about that stuff. And I still am, right? Nobody wants to be rejected. But I feel like I've come to some terms with not everybody has to like me, not everybody has to want to be friends with me, and that's okay because the opposite is true, too. There are people who I think are trying to be friends with me, and I don't want to be friends with them. And that's okay, too.

Karen: Yeah, I think, like, the more I've grown to like myself and appreciate myself, the more willing I am to put myself out there for someone to just reject me.

Like we're in this marketing program together, and one of our coaching colleagues is running it. I don't know if I'm allowed to mention it or not, but Claire. I was like. We're friends now. I just messaged her, and I said that. I was like, you know, and I just responded to something personal, even though we're in this professional environment together. Because my thought is, either she'll be okay with it, or she'll just never respond, and then I'll be like, “Oh, okay, you don't want to be my friend? Let me find someone else.”

Like you have to have this abundant mindset, too. There are lots of people in the world. Some might want to be my friends. Some might not. I know it sounds so juvenile, but I just look out at, you know, peers or other people. I think a lot of us deal with social isolation and fear of rejection.

And we have this sense that everyone has a million friends except us because that's what we see on Facebook when in reality, like close friends, I'm not sure that if there is someone who's our age working and parenting and has a ton of really close friends, I just would love to know how does she do it? Because there's a time requirement, you know?

So I think it helped us that we kept being in the same place and spending time together. Like when I followed you to the Bahamas for vacation with my family, right? It's like you have these little friend explosions because you're together for, like, I see you versus seeing someone in passing or seeing someone at work. It's that time you need together, I think, or talking at least. What do you think?

Bonnie: Yeah, I feel like you said a lot of information there. You were like when I followed you to the Bahamas.

Karen: I don't know if that's actually what happened. But we really both just love to travel, and I feel like we connected on that. And we like to travel with fancy things sometimes. And then we're sort of like, “Is that okay? Not everyone is okay with talking about that.”

And so, somehow, I think you decided first. You were like. This is where I'm going for Christmas last year, so 2021. And I was like, “Wait, where? Oh, that looks good.” I don't know if I asked you or if I just was like, “We're going to go, too.”

Bonnie: Yeah, I don't think you asked. I think you just said, “We're going to go, too.”

Karen: The worst thing that could happen is I just get to be on vacation, and you could have ignored me the whole time, which would have been okay.

Bonnie: That would have been really awkward. But we were, like, actual friends by then. But one thing that I don't really talk about in the podcast because my podcast isn't really just for entrepreneurs, right? I'm sure there are some entrepreneurs who follow me. But in entrepreneurship, or when you're doing something, I think building a business can be isolating because not all people are doing that.

And so I think it is important to find other people or go to these conferences, like you and I go to a lot of the same sort of coaching training programs like in-person. And so it's really, I think, important to find your people and have a little friend group because it can be lonely when you're building a business and all that stuff.

Like Brooke Castillo even says, it can be lonely because of where she is at in her business, right? She made $50 million last year. And so there aren't a lot of people at that level.

Karen: Yeah, and I think it's fair to also point out that when I first reached out to you, you were at a much different place than me in terms of your business. So I did also rely on you. You gave me a lot of mentorship, too. Like I would just ask you stuff all the time. You'd be like, do this, do that, you could do this, you could do that.

I feel like you even just said fairly recently, right, or maybe we heard it somewhere else, but people were talking about it matters who you're spending time with. If you're spending time with entrepreneurs, then you'll raise your entrepreneurial game. If you're spending time with people who care about doing mission work, you're going to be more likely to do that.

The people you spend time with are going to like it matters. If you have a goal or if you're trying to up-level in some way, then you want to be around like-minded people. Do you know what I'm talking about? Didn't you just say something like that?

Bonnie: Wait, are you saying that you listen to my podcast?

Karen: No. Well, maybe I did. Was that in your podcast?

Bonnie: Yeah, that was a podcast episode. And I was like, okay, maybe she did. Whatever, it doesn't matter.

Karen: I don't remember. Maybe I did.

Bonnie: Or maybe it was on social media post based on the podcast.

Karen: Oh, maybe I read that. Yeah. So now I’m quoting you to you, basically

Bonnie: Well yeah, basically, that beliefs are contagious. So if you're around people who think it's normal to make a million dollars, and Karen and I are around those types of people, it becomes very normal. Like, I'm not making a million dollars a year yet, but it doesn't seem like this pie in the sky, like, oh my God, I can't do that or seem so far away. Now it's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to make a million dollars.

Karen: Okay, I don't quite have that thought yet, but I'm not like, “That's an insane thing that could never happen.” I'm not there, either. I'm just sort of like, where I am.

Bonnie: Yeah. Well, I think it's good even just for you to notice that you're not like, “That's an insane, crazy amount of money that I'll never achieve.” I don't know what you were thinking before. The thing is, I didn't even have thoughts about making a million dollars because it wasn't even something I even ever considered. Like, it just wasn't an option for me to make a million dollars a year.

And then when people are talking about it, I’m like, “What? You can make a million dollars a year?” I mean, of course, I knew that people make a million dollars a year or more. But it seemed so out there. Anyway, that's just my experience. But now that I'm around people who are making seven figures plus and we also talk about it because, in business, you talk about money and how much money you're making because that is one of the measures of success of a business.

So yeah, have you noticed, and obviously, I'm a money coach, so the people we're around, the coaches, we talk about money a lot. And it's so normal to talk about. Like people say their income, it’s not weird to ask, you know what I mean?

Karen: Yeah. Well, I mean, that raises all kinds of things for me because, yeah, you're a money coach, and then I came to this friendship with a ton of thoughts around money. Even still, thoughts from my upbringing, like everyone has, which you talk about all the time with your clients. But just about how what you taught me, I think, or your book did, which I would recommend to anyone because it's just so powerful to have that kind of frameshift, was I realized that money is impact. You have more money, you have more impact, and you can do more good if that's something you want.

Because I grew up with like very strong Judeo-Christian values, materialism doesn't matter. What matters is helping, and that's like in my DNA. And so the idea of making a lot of money was just like if you're doing that, your priorities are off because what you really should care about is helping people.

And so then you helped me, and Sunny helped me realize they can be the same. Like you can help more people when you have more money. And that was just, like, even still now, I have some of those thoughts that come up.

I think that's probably part of why I'm not like, “Oh, I can make a million dollars.” Because part of me is like, “Oh my God, everyone listening to the podcast will have thoughts about me if I say I'm trying to make a million dollars.” And then I get to remember that money isn't good or bad. I learned it from you.

Bonnie: Yeah, I still have some nervousness when I - Actually, an email I sent out, I think, actually said my goal this year is 2 million. I actually changed it to 1.5 million, but whatever, it's still over seven figures. It's funny. I was like, I'm a little uncomfortable saying this. But I'm like, “But if I don't do it, what the hell? I'm a money coach. I have to be brave and talk about it, too.” Do you know what I mean?

Karen: Yeah, it doesn't actually mean anything about you. That's your goal. It's just an amount of money.

Bonnie: Yeah. Just speaking to what you were saying about, since many of the listeners are physicians, like, yeah, we kind of have this martyr mentality that we're here to help people. In fact, I have two examples that I want to tell you real quick, although I'm going to do a podcast on this, but it's fine.

The other day, I actually met potentially a new friend. One of my goals this year is to make new local friends, specifically. Because I feel like I have a lot of friends, but they're kind of like scattered, and I don't see them very often, right?

Karen: Hear that, people in the tri-state area? Bonnie is accepting friend applications. I’m just kidding.

Bonnie: Not just tri-state, it's going to be like within a 20-mile radius.

Karen: Oh, okay. Okay, wow, very competitive.

Bonnie: Like friends who I can see more than just once a year because we live close enough that we can make plans, right?

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: So, people who live around me in northern New Jersey, New York City. So yeah, I'm taking applications. Anyway, so this was a school mom. So I do the drop-offs for Jack in the morning. And I don't really talk to the parents because, basically, people drop off, and then they leave, right? That's usually the deal.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: But there's this mom that I've seen a few times. We went to back-to-school night, and we talked. And we talked again. It was like two days ago, and I don't even remember how he started talking. Oh, we started talking because both of our kids are going to be in kindergarten. But before I get to the whole story, one of my goals last year was also to make more couple friends. Like friends that Matt and I could go on a double date.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: So we are courting a couple family, a couple.

Karen: Well, it's hard, too, right? Because you might like one of the partners, and then your partner might not like the other one. And then you're like, darn it, I really wanted to be friends with them. But it's not going to work unless it's both; it's reciprocal.

Bonnie: Yeah. And like I said, you have to make an effort. You have to be like, “Hey, let's go out to dinner. Let's make plans.” Versus like, “Yeah, we should hang out sometime,” because there is no sometimes on the calendar, right?

So anyway, back to the thing about the mom, I was talking to. So both of our sons are going to be in kindergarten, so she asked me, “Where is he going to go?” And I said, “Well, he can go to the public school,” and I told her which one we’re zoned for. And I was like, “But we're also applying to private schools.” I actually don't know if I told you this, Karen, but we can talk offline about this. But we're also applying to private school.” I actually don't know if I told you this, Karen, we can talk offline about this.

Karen: I don’t think so.

Bonnie: Anyway, so we're applying to private schools. And I don't know who said it first, but basically, we applied to the same school. And we just got to talking, and then we were kind of talking about private versus public and just kind of going into it. And it sounded like we had similar views.

And then she's like, well, you know, she said, “I work in Tenafly, and I see all these spoiled kids because I work in pediatrics.” I'm like, wait a minute, what do you do? She's like, you know, I don't want to say her specialty and give too much information. But basically, she's a physician.

Karen: Uh-huh.

Bonnie: And so, you know, once you find out someone's a physician, it's like this instant connection, you know?

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: And the reason why I'm bringing her up is just an example of just, like having a conversation with someone that you might not think is friend material, is the best way to say it, you know, because we all judge people, right? I don’t really have a judgment of her, but more like I'm in and out when I'm dropping him off. And so we just started talking. I told her I was a dermatologist, but I life coach now.

And then she's she said that it's really hard for her with these pick-ups because preschool in the morning is three hours. So you have to drop them off at eight and do a pick-up at 11. And we take Jack to a second preschool that's private. Her son just goes home. And she was just saying how it's really hard. Now I'm like forgetting why, oh yeah, because I think she was jealous that I could kind of do whatever I wanted timewise.

I don't think she wants to retire from medicine, but she's a practice owner, and basically, you know, she's the one who's seeing all the patients. So we just got to talking. Basically, her husband's kind of business-minded and entrepreneur-minded, and I love giving people ideas. I don't know if you notice, Karen, but I feel like when I see people, or I talk to people who are like earlier in the business journey, or even if they don't, I just say like, you should do this, you should do that.

So I kind of told her that, and she was like really into it. She was like, “Oh my God, my husband would love to talk to you.” Then she's like, “We should do dinner.” Anyway, so we have a dinner date.

Karen: She stepped it up.

Bonnie: Yeah. And then, okay, the reason why, not just the friendship thing, but also about money. So she takes primarily cash, and then she's saying I wanted to help people, but insurance makes it really hard to see patients because they pay like $1 these days. I'm exaggerating, but sometimes it's like ten bucks, right? It's crazy.

So I think I could tell she felt a little guilty, but this is what she was doing. And we were just talking about money. And I was like, become rich with business, and then you can help more people. Kind of like what you were saying, like the more money you make, the more people you can help because when you're “serving people,” and it's a direct time and effort to do that, you can only help so many people, right?

Karen: Right.

Bonnie: Your capacity isn't that high.

Karen: Yeah. I'm so glad you finally brought it on home because I was like, I'm getting bored. We're going to have to edit out some of that. That was very long to get to this point. Or you and Pavel can decide, but I'm just like, I could leave.

Bonnie: Oh my God, you’re so funny. Pavel is my podcast editor, by the way.

Karen: I hear what you’re saying, yeah. So yeah, it does bring it all together. I totally understand why you told that story. It's like a new person, but then you find out they're a doctor, then you're like, oh. And that happens in reverse, too.

Like you go somewhere and you can just tell the person you're with has no interest in you until you say something, I don't know, like I've traveled somewhere, or I volunteered here, or this is where I grew up. And then suddenly, they're like lasered in, and now they're interested in you. That's just like normal.

Although when it happens to me, I get a little insulted sometimes. So it's kind of nice to be like, oh, I probably do that, too. It's true. As soon as I know someone's a physician, I'm much more interested in you now. It’s just how our brains are.

Bonnie: Well, I think, you know, we just like commonalities, right?

Karen: Yes.

Bonnie: We feel like we can connect more. Okay, that is my story. I know it was kind of long-winded.

Karen: I'm sorry, that was rude. But I was just like, I just imagine your listeners, and I was like, I don't want them to tune out. We have lots of more interesting things we're going to tell them about you and about our friendship. We’ve got to get a little more salacious.

Bonnie: Well, also, this is an example of how we're direct and blunt with each other.

Karen: Oh, yeah. I know. It's good, though, right? I think it's good. It's almost like on a family level. Sometimes we just like, we have these little interactions, and then we're both just like, I need a break from you.

Bonnie: It's like sibling rivalry, almost a little bit.

Karen: Yeah, because you're the big sister, aren’t you?

Bonnie: Am I?

Karen: Well, your brother's younger than you. Isn't he in real life?

Bonnie: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Karen: Yeah, and I’m in the middle. So you don't like being told what to do, but you love to tell other people what to do.

Bonnie: Oh my God, that’s true.

Karen: I don't mind being told what to do. Yeah, I guess we never had this epiphany before. But it's so obvious to me now, which is part of why, like, I don't mind when you tell me what to do, but I also like to tell you what to do. So it gets convoluted because then it's like you're always telling me what to do, but then you only want me to tell you what to do if you ask, which is hard. It's hard to navigate those things sometimes.

Bonnie: Yeah, that's so funny. I mean, I do know the whole older sibling tends to be, I guess, bossier is the word. Are you saying I'm bossy? It's fine. I'm direct.

Karen: I don’t think you're bossy. Yeah, you're direct. But you also like you like coming up with things on your own, right? Like, if I'm like, I watched this show, it was so good. You'll be like, yeah, I don’t know. But then, if you happen to watch it, you're like, did you see this show? It's so good. And I'll be like, I know, I told you that. And you're like, oh. It just doesn't, like it doesn't register, you know what I mean?

Bonnie: I also forget things the next day.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: I'll repeat things to you, and you're like you told me this yesterday.

Karen: Yeah, I just don't make it mean anything.

Bonnie: Yeah, let's give an example of something I get annoyed about that you do.

Karen: Oh my gosh.

Bonnie: Or something that you get annoyed that I do.

Karen: Well, yeah. Well, you get annoyed. It's funny that I'm telling you what you get annoyed about. But I think sometimes you'll just want me to listen. You'll just be like, this thing is so annoying. But I'll really want to fix it for you.

My kind of doctor, we fix things. And you'll be like, can you not do that? Like, stop doing that. And I'm like, I’m sorry, I was just trying to help, you know? That happens a lot. And because there's a difference, like sometimes people think coaching, like a coach, just tells you what to do. That's not what a coach does. Not a good coach anyway, right?

But sometimes when you really, you know, sometimes when you're feeling bad, when Bonnie is feeling bad, and I want you to feel better, I have to be painfully reminded that my job is to just listen to you and support you and not try to make it better. And I have a hard time with that.

Bonnie: But we've gotten good about it. I think we have a code word now.

Karen: What is it? I forget?

Bonnie: I know, me too.

Karen: I was like, “Bonnie, here's your safe word. If you say this, I'll just shut up.”

Bonnie: I think it's something as simple as subject change or change the subject. We should think of a funnier word, though.

Karen: I feel like I did.

Bonnie: Like apple pie.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Okay, that'll be our code word; apple pie.

Karen: Okay. Our safe word, okay.

Bonnie: Yeah. Do you know that Matt and I have a safe word?

Karen: No.

Bonnie: Yeah. Not about, like, stop talking, but about, like, if I'm actually in danger.

Karen: Oh.

Bonnie: You do it with your kids, by the way. Your kids are old enough.

Karen: Oh, you mean like if you're being kidnapped and held against your will and he calls you, you get to say this thing. I got it.

Bonnie: Do you know what mine is?

Karen: Don’t admit it on national iPod, iPhone, like the podcast.

Bonnie: Oh, no, you’re right. I shouldn’t say it in case somebody listening wants to kidnap me.

Karen: Yeah, and they'll text it back, and then they can just do what they will with you. That's funny. Well, you can tell me what your current one is, but then you're going to have to change it.

Bonnie: No, I'll tell you offline. No, it's a good one, so I'm not going to change it.

Karen: So what's something that you do that annoys me?

Bonnie: It's so funny. I'm like. I don't know. But I'm sure you know.

Karen: Like you just said, you forget things I tell you, or you forget things you've told me. And then I'm like, you've told me that already. Clearly, I don't matter to you. I'm just one of hundreds of people you tell things to.

Bonnie: You know, you're not the only person who's told me this. I just forget things. Do you know the running joke in the family about my forgetfulness?

Karen: I do because you told me. Is it about the show you watch and you don't remember?

Bonnie: Oh my God, that’s hysterical.

Karen: What’s the show called? Kidnapped or something.

Bonnie: Taken.

Karen: Taken.

Bonnie: The movie.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: I don’t remember the plot of Taken.

Karen: I think it's okay to normalize like there are always things about your friends that are annoying sometimes. Just like there are always things about your partner that are annoying sometimes.

Bonnie: And your kids.

Karen: You're never going to find a friend that doesn't annoy you at all. And sometimes, the closer you are to someone, the little things annoy you more. But it's just all part of having a relationship. Yeah.

Bonnie: And I think when you're developing friendships, it can be - I think when you're out of practice of making friends, it can be awkward. Like awkward for you, it doesn't mean you actually appear awkward. And I don't know about you, but a lot of times you’re like, oh, I don't want to be annoying. Or, oh my God, they didn’t text me back for three days. What's going on?

Actually, there's someone who hasn't responded to me in a week, and I'm like, oh my God, maybe they don't like me anymore. So, anyway.

All right, so I think you wanted to talk about what I'm like in real life.

Karen: Wait, there's one more thing I wanted to say before we do that, which is I wanted to talk about the most helpful thing that I can ever tell you that you ask me to tell you sometimes when you're in your mind drama, the little phrase, what is it?

Bonnie: No one cares.

Karen: Why is that useful for you?

Bonnie: And I actually like it when you say, “No one cares, Bonnie.” Because as long as you just say, no one cares, so add the Bonnie, like it adds an extra touch for me.

Karen: Yeah, because sometimes I present that in coaching just as an option, right? Like you're in your own little universe, thinking that everyone is going to think something about you. Not you, but as humans, we're like, everyone at the whole school is going to notice that it's the third time this week I dropped my kid off late. And they're going to think she's a horrible mother. And, like, we believe that.

We believe everyone in the whole school cares about what kind of mother I am. So it's a perfect opportunity to be like Bonnie, not that you worry about that. But, like, no one cares. And then you’re like, “Oh yeah.”

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: So it's like relief.

Bonnie: Yeah, and I think to me it's a reminder that people, including myself and you, it's like we're worried about our own shit.

Karen: All the time.

Bonnie: Right? We're not like thinking about that person. I mean, maybe we do occasionally, right? But for the most part, we're not thinking about other people. We're thinking about ourselves.

Karen: I know, it's weird how normal it is for us to think that everyone's thinking about us until we're like shaken out of it. And I stole that from Schitt’s Creek, which is a show that I really liked that I don't think you ever watched.

Bonnie: Yeah, I don't like those types of shows. Would you call it a comedy that’s sarcastic, sarcastic comedy?

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: I've watched a show, like that show and Arrested Development. I feel like they're kind of similar. Not like the plot or anything but the type of, I don't know, I can’t get into those.

Karen: I don’t know. What do you mean? I didn’t love Arrested Development, and I love Schitt’s Creek.

Bonnie: You do like Arrested Development?

Karen: No, I didn't particularly. I could never really get into it.

Bonnie: I couldn't get into either.

Karen: Anyway, I just didn't want to take credit for a concept that I didn't create. It comes up in a scene where someone's like fixated on what the driver's ed teacher is going to think if they fail their license test again. And then their sister is like, “No one cares.”

Bonnie: Yeah, like they might care for like a split second and have a judgment, and then they're like off to their next mind drama.

Karen: Yeah, because they're worried about their own, like what everyone thinks about them. It’s awesome.

Bonnie: And I almost feel like it's magnified because we're both coaches and, you know, we have people following us, people listen to my podcast, people getting my emails or social media. And if we do something that we're not proud of, or whatever, just like it could be anything.

Karen: It's magnified.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: Yeah, because there's like some kind of public like you're in the arena.

Bonnie: I definitely have done things that have pissed people off, and I've had to apologize for things. I think it's happened at least two times.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Yeah, people emailed me back saying, what the hell? They didn’t quite say it like that. And some people have been really, this is kind of an off-topic, but like some people were like really nice about it, they were like, you know, blah, blah, blah. And some people are really upset and mean, and it's fine, you know?

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: So I actually appreciate they take the time out to let me know. And sometimes I kind of know right away, I'm like, oh shit, I shouldn't have said this or whatever. And sometimes someone has to tell me. So anyway.

Karen: No, you know what? I feel like there's a reason you mentioned that because that just happened to me last night in my coaching group. We were coaching, and it was fine, and then all of a sudden, someone messaged me privately that the way we had been talking about, and I even am going to make sure I say this properly, like someone with a substance use disorder, someone who was asking for opiates in a scenario that is not appropriate.

And just in talking about them, like I used terminology that's outdated that I didn't know, I'm not in practice anymore. So they said to me, like, that's not very sensitive, or I'm concerned, we're labeling this person or something. And I went into like total shame about it as I'm coaching. I'm like, oh my God, I did this bad thing. I did a bad thing.

And then I was like, oh. I apologized. I didn't know. I was open. I took the feedback. I like read an article, and now I feel good about it instead of, you know, what you want to do is just hide under a rock.

But once you're through the other side, you're like, oh, yeah, people make mistakes. And then we apologize. And some people forgive us, and some don't. But that's what it means to be a human being. So I totally relate to that. But it doesn't feel great, but we do make mistakes sometimes.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: Even us.

Bonnie: We're all going to make mistakes.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: We're going to piss off people at certain points in our lives.

Karen: We might be pissing people off right now.

Bonnie: With our conversation?

Karen: Yeah, we might.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: How dare we disparage Schitt's Creek, you know? I don't know.

Bonnie: All right.

Karen: All right. So this is what I brought for you. Are you ready?

Bonnie: Uh-oh.

Karen: I thought it would be fun if I just did a top five things that people might not know about you that are fun to learn.

Bonnie: Okay.

Karen: You ready for number one?

Bonnie: I'm scared of what you’re going to say.

Karen: Don't be scared. I don't think any of these are so bad. And we can always edit them.

Bonnie: Anything so bad?

Karen: No, I don't think so. The first one is that you're a really good cook. And you love to cook. Do you talk about that a lot on the podcast?

Bonnie: No, but I post pictures of my food on Instagram. So the people who follow me in my stories, I will take pictures of my food.

Karen: So, like, you made bagels the other day. I was like, what? How do you do that? You make Korean chicken wings, I think, or something. Or no, you make like some kind of chicken you were going to bring when you came to visit me. And I was like, I don’t know what that is. Barbecue.

Bonnie: I go through periods, and if I'm like really busy and stressed out, I obviously don't want to cook at all. And there are periods of time when I'll go a little crazy. To give an example, there was one day when I just was like, I really want to make Indian food. And I went all in. When I say all in, let me tell you what all in is.

So I made chicken tikka masala. I made the, is it pollock paneer?

Karen: Salad paneer, the spinach one?

Bonnie: With the cheese in it?

Karen: Yeah, I love that one.

Bonnie: I made the cheese.

Karen: What?

Bonnie: This is what I mean. Sometimes I just go down this rabbit hole, and I have to do everything.

Karen: Wow.

Bonnie: The cheese didn't quite come out because it didn't get hard enough, so it kind of crumbled. But it was still good. I didn't make naan bread, though. But I made Pratha bread.

Karen: Wow.

Bonnie: You know what that is?

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: It's like the flaky, crispy one. That is a lot of work. When I told someone I made it, they were like, whoa.

Karen: And you had fun doing it too.

Bonnie: Yeah, it's like a lot of rolling, putting on butter. Like certain things are worth making because the homemade version is a thousand times better. Do you know what is a thousand times better homemade besides that? Making your own corn tortillas.

Karen: What?

Bonnie: I have a tortilla press.

Karen: That can take like all day, though.

Bonnie: No.

Karen: I went to Guatemala and saw - No?

Bonnie: No.

Karen: Really?

Bonnie: It's super easy. I mean, the pressing of the tortilla, and maybe people are listening, and they have tips, but what's hard about that part is it sticks. And then people told me you could use plastic wrap, but I still find it kind of annoying.

Karen: You know what I’m never going to do ever in a million years? Make my own corn tortillas. But I love that you do. That's what is like surprising about you, a unique passion.

Okay, let me go to the next one because we're not going to go through these. This is the only one that's a little bit like you can disclose what you want or what you don't want. But I think it's fair to say, based on things you've told me, that you were a little wild in your 20s and your 30s. Do you agree?

Bonnie: It just depends on how people label or what they consider wild. But I definitely was. I had some interesting times living in New York City in my 20s.

Karen: Yeah. Okay, well, that can segue us in.

Bonnie: We’ll just leave it to people’s imagination.

Karen: No, but you had a life before you went into medicine, and you went to med school later. I wonder if everyone knows that? Tell us what you did.

Bonnie: I think people do. I've talked about it a few times. But yeah, remember you said no one cares? Yeah, I may have talked about it ten times, and like no one's paying attention, right? But yeah, I was always pre-med. So I was a bio-chem major in college. When I was pre-med, I collected all my letters of recommendation.

I actually did not do that well in college. What I mean by that is my freshman year, I had a 2.8 or 2.7 because I was partying. I dyed my hair pink that year.

Karen: What?

Bonnie: Yeah, so anyway, but then sophomore year through senior year, like, I buckled down, and I had like basically a 3.9 average those three years. But then, you know, it like averaged out to 3.4. But then I got a job offer, and as soon as I got the job offer, I withdrew from my Kaplan MCAT class.

Karen: See ya! Mic drop, I’m out of here.

Bonnie: I’m out of here basically, yeah. And they offered me a lot of money at the, you know, I actually calculated how much they offered me with inflation, and it's over $100,000 at this point. But anyway, but to get that job offer right after college, and the first six months were in London, where I had a corporate apartment. It was amazing, by the way. I haven't thought about it in a while, actually, because it was so long ago, at this point, over 20 years ago. It was really nice.

It was a two-bedroom apartment. And my bathroom had a heated towel stand. And that was my first -

Karen: Okay, wait, wait. I need to segue for a minute.

Bonnie: Okay.

Karen: This is really important. I don't know if she's going to listen to this or not, but I have an assistant this year. It was a big thing for me to get this assistant. And I really adore her. I wanted to get her a nice gift to thank her for all the work she's done for me. And I just felt like a fruit basket or like a candle or, you know, it's just lame. I didn't want to give her money. I wanted to give her something. And she's a mom, and she lives in Colorado, so she does like skiing and stuff.

So someone posted on Facebook that someone had gifted them a heated towel device. And it's sleek looking, like a towel warmer for the holidays. And I was like, oh, that's a great idea. I love towel warmers. I love putting on a warm towel. Like there's nothing better than that feeling when you get out of the shower.

I bought this for my assistant, it hasn't arrived yet, or it's going to arrive today or tomorrow. And then I happened to be away this weekend with two other friends, and I was like, “All right, you guys, tell me honestly, how would you feel if someone got you a heated towel warmer for Christmas or for Hanukkah?” And they're like, “I wouldn't feel good.”

Bonnie: What?

Karen: Just like thumbs down on this gift. I had to laugh so much. And I was like, well, you know, you can't win them all. I don't know how my assistant is going to feel about it. I thought it was interesting. But now to hear you be like, “It had a heated towel warmer,” I'm like, this might be why we're friends, Bonnie. It’s the small things.

Bonnie: Well, also, like that gift was specific to her. Do you know what I mean? So with the other people, they're like, why do I need that? Like, for me, I'm like, I haven't thought about a heated towel stand in a long time. But I'll put things in the dryer to heat them up. So I used to heat up Jack's clothes in the morning. And then, one day, he said he didn't want it anymore. So I was like, okay.

Karen: Oh, so sad.

Bonnie: Maybe it was too hot. I don't know. How did we? Oh yeah, we were talking about how I went to med school. Yeah, so actually, they sent me to Sao Paulo, Brazil, for a month. In the corporate apartment, they paid my US salary, and then they gave us a per diem. So I was basically an ex-pat.

Karen: Oh.

Bonnie: So they gave us like pounds every month. And it was significant enough, like it paid for all of my expenses. And so I would travel to like Spain on the weekends or Paris. And anyway, that was fun.

Karen: What was the actual work even? Like, what were you doing?

Bonnie: I was an IT person.

Karen: I'm like, wait, that sounds great. Maybe I should do it. Then I'm like, oh, no, there it is.

Bonnie: It’s funny because when I tell people who know what I did, I wouldn't say impressed, but maybe a little bit because it is very, like, I was a Unix systems administrator. And if you know what that is, it's like - funny, because when I tell people who know what I did, I wouldn't say impressed, but maybe a little bit because it is very like, I was a Unix systems administrator. And if you know what that is, it's like -

Karen: I don't know what that is, but I'm impressed.

Bonnie: Yeah, that’s fine. I figured you didn't know. I worked for Morgan Stanley.

Karen: Yeah. That’s it. You worked in IT. I want to make sure I get through all my list. I still have two more.

Bonnie: Okay. You're like, stop talking, Bonnie, this is important.

Karen: I’m like, come on. Okay, her favorite place in the world is?

Bonnie: You tell me. I think it's obvious; people know, Hawaii.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah. But I still think it's fun to know about you. Because I’ve been to Hawaii, I wouldn't say that about Hawaii. I haven't seen it through your eyes. But it's just I don't know what my favorite place is. But, like, that's a really special place for you. You’re so happy there.

Bonnie: Yeah. I had my retreat there. Do you know what it is? It's hard to say; I feel like it has this energy. I know you don't believe in this stuff, but part of me feels like -

Karen: Are you going to talk about your past lives?

Bonnie: I must have had a past life there. Or maybe I was a rock there. I don't know. But I have this special. It's hard to explain it, but there's a special connection/energy that I feel there. Because when I tell people Hawaii, some of them are like, “Oh my God, that's amazing.”

Actually, a coach that we both know, Jamie Berman, loves Hawaii too. It's Maui for her. Actually, I told Sunny this, and she was like, “I don't get it.” o. It's Maui for her. Actually, I told Sonny this and she was like, “I don't get it.”

Karen: Yeah, right, it's special. I know, and I like that you have a place that's special to you.

All right, are you ready for the last one? This is my favorite one.

Bonnie: Okay.

Karen: I wrote, you’re humble, and you don't notice how unique your brain is. Like the fact that you could do this IT job, and then do medicine, and then do coaching. And also, like, it's so organized, like you know so much about so many random things. Like you don't just drink wine and have a special kind of bottle opener, you're telling me how it's like argon gas, and I feel like you're like pulling out the periodic table and explaining to me why it works, right?

And you have like a thousand, a million, like infinite, endless information that you're just like, oh blah, blah, blah about this thing. And I'm like, how do you know that? Why do you know that? But then you're just like, oh, it's just, you know, like, whatever.

Bonnie: This is true. People tell me that I know, it's not even like I know everything in terms of facts because I would lose Trivial Pursuit.

Karen: Right.

Bonnie: Like, I don't know any history. That's just something I’ve blocked out. I had never got it. I didn’t understand why I had to memorize these dates and these people I just didn’t understand. Anyway.

Karen: Yeah, it's things that interest you; you're going to go all the way to try to understand. I'm just like, oh, there’s a cool bottle opener. But you're like, wait, why? I want to learn all the things. Or I'm like, oh, this hotel. And you're like, let me tell you all the reasons that you haven't even noticed about why this is so cool. It's just, I don't know, it's like the way you learn or the way you pull information, and then you store it, something. It's just it's different than my brain. So I find it fun to be around that.

I have other smarts, right? Like, we all have our own smarts. I'm not like you're smarter than everyone I know. I mean, you might be, but it's more just like it's different. And I really liked that because it's also very useful. It’s like a high utility. If you could only bring one person to a desert island, I might bring you because you're going to know how to cook, you're going to know how to, I don't know.

Bonnie: Okay, this is funny.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Listen, you know that thing masterclass where people teach things?

Karen: Oh, yeah.

Bonnie: I watched the one on how to survive in the wilderness.

Karen: See, I'm not surprised. You just store information in an interesting way. And it's not just information. It's like how to do things. So as an entrepreneur who doesn't know how to, it's almost like maybe you see data, or you see organization, or you just see things in a way that I can't see them. And then you're like, oh, you just da, da, da, da. I'm like, oh, I would have never figured that out.

And I think that's why it lends itself well to understanding money. But it's a translatable skill. You're not just like a money geek who then is like, you know, like, my husband is good at finance. It's not like across all things in life that he is interested in. Do you know what I mean?

Bonnie: Yeah. No, thank you, I feel good.

Karen: Well, that's the goal.

Bonnie: But yeah, people tell me a lot that I know when I say everything like I'm really into knowing all the logistics. And I think there was something that you asked that I didn't know and you were shocked. I forget what it was, but it was semi-recent. Or maybe you were shocked that I didn't know all the details. Like I'm very detail-oriented.

Karen: Oh yeah, it was the program we're doing. And I was like, hey, what time is the calls, and did you know it goes to four o'clock? And you were like, what, when? And I was like, you don’t know this?

Bonnie: No, that I knew. That I knew because I clicked the thing, and it added it to my calendar, so I noticed it was two hours. But it was about that program, though. Something about it, I don't know.

Karen: Yeah. And I never know anything. Where do I have to go? What's the thing? But I think some of it is, yeah, again, it's just how our brains process and store information. I'm not saying that like I'm incapacitated, or one is better than the other.

I think knowing the strengths of one's brain and also recognizing what one is not able to do, instead of sort of valuing some brains higher or lower, like we were all given these brains, and they work in different ways. But it's not like you didn't earn it, you know what I mean? It's a funny way of thinking about it, but even having high intelligence is like a privilege that we didn't do anything for it, you know?

So we can just sort of appreciate it and think it's very cool. But it's also just like it was a gift bestowed on us. I don't know. So I love that, like, I don't know why I used the word humble because it can be to our detriment sometimes, right? How, as women, we undervalue ourselves, or we don't recognize how amazing we are.

So that's why it's nice to have a friend, like what you did for me at my retreat when I was just like, “Ah, now I have to teach them everything.” You were like, “No, you're fine. Just be yourself and just do what you do. You don't have to be so worried about it.” And it's like, oh yeah, I can just be who I am like that's enough.

Bonnie: Yeah, it's funny because I do feel like, so you know, I think it's good to know your strengths, and it's also good to know about the things about you that maybe you don't love about yourself. And I think that's something I've had to really, I don't want to say learn to love, but be okay with the fact that these are the things that I know can annoy people if that makes sense.

And so one of them, it's kind of the opposite of what you just said, is like it's not even that I think I'm better than people. I think that's my like defense mechanism when I feel a little insecure. Does that make sense? Like I can get judgy. That's really what it is.

Karen: Yeah, as can everyone. And you realize why it's happening.

Bonnie: Oh, totally, for sure. So well, we had a honeymoon phase.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: I think the honeymoon might be over.

Karen: So, tell me more.

Bonnie: You're just like, what? I didn't know.

Karen: Wait, are you breaking up with me on this podcast?

Bonnie: No, I'm not. Yeah, I think every relationship has that honeymoon period where you're like really excited by the other person. And it's not that you're boring to me; that's not what I mean. I don't know.

Karen: No, it's like we actually know each other now. You know, it's not just like -

Bonnie: Learning new things all the time.

Karen: Yeah. Yeah.

Bonnie: Yeah, I feel very comfortable, for the most part. And it’s not because you make me uncomfortable. I think that’s also just one of the things I'm always working on is just being me. You know, I'm into this Dr. Joe Dispenza. Like, I'm obsessed with him right now. Like it takes so much energy not to be you, and that kind of struck me. And so I'm becoming more okay with being me.

And I think, not to give everyone my childhood history, but I think I had a lot of like social rejection growing up. And so I think that's just always in the back of my mind that, like, oh, was I too annoying? Especially with new friendships, I always like worry. It's just like this person who hasn't got back to me. I'm like, oh, maybe I was too much.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Just random thoughts.

Karen: No, but I think a lot of us have those thoughts. Maybe all of us.

Bonnie: Yeah, that's a good reminder because I sometimes think all of us, and even my clients, we think we're like the only ones that are having these issues.

Karen: Right. It's so nice to be like, nope, the human brain.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: Yeah, I think it's part of it too like when you have a new friend, you just only want them to see the best side of you. Or at least that's how I am. And then, like, you spend a lot of time with someone, you see all of it, right?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: Like you came to visit me, my family in my house with your kid and my kids. And it's just like, it's crazy town, right? There's going to be good stuff that happens.

Bonnie: I thought your kids were totally cool. Walden was at sleepaway camp.

Karen: Oh, there were only two. 33% fewer kids. Yeah, well, I'm glad that you felt that way. But yeah, there's also this sense of like, oh, they're going to see really what my life is like, right? And then when you get to that point with a friend and they see what your life is really like, and they still want to be your friend, there's something really nice about that. It's like, I feel like it'd be pretty hard for you to get rid of me at this point, and vice versa.

So we don’t have to try as hard, you know, it doesn't always have to be like a fancy trip somewhere. It’s like, oh, it's Thursday, and we're working on something, and then that's really nice, too.

Bonnie: Yeah. Speaking of just like being okay with being yourself, and then I think the comfort of having someone see all of that, okay, this is a random story. And I know, like, I feel like you're telling me that my stories are boring.

Karen: I only said that one time because it was long. You go back and listen to it. All the other ones have been very interesting.

Bonnie: Okay. I think also there are things about ourselves that we might love, but then we think other people might not like it, and it almost creates like, oh, I'm embarrassed.

So, for example, for a long time, I used to feel embarrassed that I live in an apartment. That, like, you know, people will be like, what? Why isn't she living in a better place? It is a luxury, high-rise building. This is just a recent aha moment. I was like, I really like living in an apartment. Part of it’s because I kind of grew up living in one. So it feels like home.

So I'm like, it's fine. And it's also, like, messy all the time. We have too much stuff. And we do want a bigger apartment, but I love it. I love that it's small because I stayed at my sister-in-law's, and she has two floors, and it was a pain in the butt to go up and down the stairs. So far to get coffee.

Karen: Yeah, it's almost like you did an intentional thought creation about, like, our brains always are like, well, these are all the things that could be better about this situation, this thing, this job I have, this partner I have, how my kids behave. And then we get to be like, oh yeah, that's something else you introduced me to is the book, The Gap and The Gain.

And we realize, like, no, there's so much to gain from where we are right now instead of thinking about like some ideal. But you actually, like, intentional thought creation is when you're like, what are the things I actually do like about this scenario? And you make your brain look at those. And then you're like, oh, I really like where I live. It's always available to you.

Bonnie: Yeah, I'm sure some lessons are like, what the hell is intentional thought creation? Do you want to explain it real quick?

Karen: I know, okay, just ignore that part. Just ignore that part.

Oh, do you want me to explain it? Sometimes our brains offer us thoughts, a lot of thoughts about something. And when we really want to push ourselves or stretch our understanding or get ourselves to think and feel differently about something, an intentional thought creation is asking your brain to come up with evidence that maybe the opposite thing is true. And find the evidence you already have in your brain.

So it doesn't mean just like, you've always wanted a house and you have an apartment. So let's make an intentional thought creation, which means I love apartments, and I hate houses like that's not how it works. But your brain, you know, in your apartment was focusing on the things you didn't really like about it. Oh, it’s too small, I don't know. I don't even know what you don't like about it.

It's funny because I don't have any thoughts about where you live. But maybe your thought was like, I want to own, or I don't like paying rent, or I want more space, or I want a yard, or whatever those things are. And then an intentional thought creation is you were like, but wait for a second, is there anything I really like about living in an apartment?

And then when you ask your brain to go find that data, you're like, turns out yes, there are lots of things. I like the convenience. I like being more in a city I like, what did you say? It's smaller. I don't have to walk as far. I don't have as many things to fill it with.

Bonnie: I think the not walking as far, I think, is kind of hilarious. But, like, everything's like right there because it's small. But that's kind of what we do with our clients, right? They'll say one thing, and we're like, what if the opposite? That's my favorite question. What if the opposite is true? What if that's not true?

Karen: Yeah, I'm trying to think. I don't think I've coached anyone on that lately. But do you have another example?

Bonnie: I feel like I do it all the time, like, with myself too. Okay, so this is something about my business. I asked myself, what were the favorite things about my business last year? And basically, I think I told you, retreats and creating that planner. And then I kind of labeled it. I was like, well, those were distraction projects because they didn't really make a lot of money.

Karen: Wait, can you just talk about the planner for one minute before you go into it?

Bonnie: What about the planner?

Karen: No, I want you to brag a little bit about the planner because it's just, like, don’t just skip over the planner. It's like an amazing planner.

Bonnie: Yes, and I was going to hold it up, but no one can, you know, I don’t do video. Yes, the planner. I've talked about it a few times on the podcast, but as you said, no one's paying attention.

Karen: Wait, and I don't even, I don't even get it, right? Because I signed up for your program before it was part of your offer.

Bonnie: Well, I can give you one. You’re on the friend list.

Karen: But I just mean it's a pretty scarce resource. So it's only, it's like a limited edition. You can only get it. I'm just trying to highlight your program for two seconds. Okay, we move on.

Bonnie: You’re so funny. Yes, it is only available if you coach with me, whether privately or in my program Live Wealthy. But the planner is amazing because I incorporate not just regular planning because there's obviously normal planning stuff. But first of all, it's really pretty because of my attention to detail and design.

So it's pink, it has like a hardcover. Of course, I picked all the expensive options, of course. Not because they were expensive, but it’s just what I liked, and it just happened to be the most expensive. I doubled the price by printing in color, basically.

Anyway, it really just has you think intentionally about what you want to do and why. And even like prompt you to, like, what thoughts are you working on this week? Like, what are you working on believing? Because everything comes down to it’s like what you believe is what you're going to create.

Karen: So, like in your imagination, right, like the best use case for this planner is someone like comes in and doesn't have a plan, a financial plan, or doesn't have a goal, or doesn't know what they're doing. And by the end of it, like, explain to me what, because you're like, well, there are regular planning things, and then there are special planning things.

And I'm like, I don't understand what any planning is. I'm not a planner. So tell me, like, would I get? Like what's your hope for what people get out of using it? Because I think that's really where the value is. Yeah, it's pretty. It's what it enables you to do, right?

Bonnie: Yeah, it's a very goal-oriented planner. And it does have money stuff, but the real money stuff is really my program, obviously. But it is kind of like as you think about everything because a lot of times we'll take care of money and then we'll just like forget about it.

So, for example, estate planning. You have an estate plan, right?

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Bonnie: Okay, you have a will, all that good stuff?

Karen: Mm-hmm.

Bonnie: Okay.

Karen: I know, I know, you’re surprised, but I do.

Bonnie: This is a perfect example, people make one, and then they think like, well, I don't have to deal with it ever again. But you actually should review it every five years. I don't know if you know that.

Karen: So it's in the planner, like, hey, did you review your will this month or this year?

Bonnie: Some form of that. I don't know exactly what it is, but I have a, it's called a money dashboard. And it kind of has an overview of the things that you should think about. And you might have them in place, but you might not, so it kind of prompts you.

Karen: That’s so good. I just hired someone to help me do this, but I'm going to have to pay them a lot of money. And they're like, what about your will? What about your insurance policy?

And so what you're saying is not only is it like these are all the things you need to be thinking about, not in a scary way, so you're like giving yourself time to do it. And then there's all the mindset stuff that you get from my program to help you not freak out, and not avoid, and not procrastinate, and not put it off, and not be afraid.

Bonnie: Yeah, totally. And with the goal part, there's also like, yeah, you know, picking the goal is, I think, pretty easy for most people.

Karen: No.

Bonnie: And then it prompts you for like - You’re, like, not me.

Karen: What is a goal? Could my goal be I want to have a million dollars in my retirement at the end of five years? Could the goal be I want to buy a rental? Yeah, I want to buy a vacation rental property and have it rented in a year. Like, can the goal be anything I want it to be?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: What are some other goals I could have and this planner would help me? I know what you think it's so obvious, but my brain doesn't work this way.

Bonnie: So funny. Yeah.

Karen: Like, if I want to lose 20 pounds, the planner would help me because I would like break down what I'm trying to do.

Bonnie: Part of it is breaking it down, but also part of it is remembering that you have a goal. Because people will make a goal, and they literally forget about it and never think about it again. This was what happened in January. Part of it's like they forget or think it's too hard. And so when you're writing out your goals in my planner, it actually asks you something like what might get in the way and what you can do about it.

And then every week and every month, so it's annual, quarterly, monthly, weekly planning. It's not as complicated as it sounds because I bet you're just like, oh my God, that sounds like a lot of work.

Karen: I know. I’m like, how many hours did you spend, do you think, working on this?

Bonnie: You know, it was a lot, but also, I already knew what I wanted, so I just had to, like, take it out of my brain. Do you know what I mean? Kind of like the book.

Karen: No, I don't know at all, but that's amazing.

Bonnie: you’re like, okay, whatever.

Karen: Bonnie’s brain, everyone. Round of applause for Bonnie’s brain. Okay, sorry, I totally derailed you. But my ADD was just like, wait, don’t just gloss over this planner. So you were saying retreats and the planner was your favorite part of this year.

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: And then the intentional thought creation was.

Bonnie: So, favorite part of the year, so that part is true. And I was like, well, I don't see how I can really make money with this like I love doing them. And you don't always do things purely for money. Like, you know, everything fits in the business model, but they took a lot of time and resources, right?

My time and the planner are not cheap to design like I hired a designer. And the printing costs are relatively astronomical for a printer because I printed in the USA, and I'm not printing hundreds of thousands of planners. But maybe in the future, right?

So I think I kind of like put it in this category of, like, well, I shouldn't do that again, and that was not a good business move. And then I basically was like, well, what if that's not true? Because I feel like in business and anyone who's just like, you know, working, it's really easy to do things that you think you should do, and then forget that, especially in business, like you should love your business and love the things you're doing in it.

And I think in our coaching business it’s really easy to get sidetracked with that. And so TBD about the retreat because everyone was like, what, you're not doing a retreat again? I don't think it's going to be in Hawaii because I was thinking of doing it on the big island, the Four Seasons Hualalai, probably the best Four Seasons in Hawaii, except for maybe the one in Lanai. It's really expensive to have a retreat in the four seasons. It's pretty obvious, right? It was very, very expensive.

And so it's not that that's a problem, but it's more the deposits required, right? It requires a lot of money upfront. So anyway, I don't know why I'm saying that. But I do want to do a retreat, so maybe I'll have one later this year. I know where it's going to be. It's just like logistics and planning.

Karen: I'm thinking about the planner still. Do you want to know what I'm thinking?

Bonnie: You want one, right? I'll give you one.

Karen: Good, goodbye. That's the only reason I'm on your podcast. I'm just kidding. No, but I was thinking not just about how much utility there is and how the organization is there, but like knowing what should even be in a planner, like the curating. So the curating of the information for financial, I mean, because there is a financial orientation to how you thought about this.

Like, I'm just thinking about the planner, the human being who is a planner for me who's like, you need to get this, you need to get this, you need to do this, you need to do this. That's what I'm paying her for. In your program and in the planner, you've already thought that all through, and you're basically like, here it all is in an organized way, in a way that like I'm going to lead you to success. I just think it's wonderful. It's not just like a pretty calendar, you know?

Bonnie: Thank you. It is true, there was definitely a first pass, and I was like, no. Part of it was like, oh, that's too much, or I need more of this. So there was some back and forth in terms of that. But in terms of the basic things I wanted the planner to have, that is all in there. So yeah, I'm very proud of it. very proud of it.

Karen: It'll be really cool, too, when you have some clients who use it, and then they reach their goal. And then you get to talk to them about how did you use this? What was your goal? And like, then there's actually like proof, you know?

Bonnie: Yes. No, totally. I sent one to Sunny. Because Sunny, I feel like you and Sunny have similar brains. Like she's kind of like, I feel like it's not insulting to say like ADD brain, right?

Karen: I don't know. I mean, it could be insulting. I don't feel insulted by it, but I know you're not. There's no judgment attached. I don't officially have ADD, but I certainly have some tendencies that would go, like, I do joke that your brain is like hundreds of sticky notes all organized alphabetically or whatever. And then my brain is like a crayon scribble. That's just how it is.

Bonnie: Yeah, so I think Sunny's brain is similar. And so she wanted the planner, so I sent her one. And she just got it, so we'll see what she thinks.

Karen: Okay. I'm excited to see what happens because she's like a non-planner. So it's interesting that like non-planners can use your planner. But we can always plan.

Bonnie: Yes, And if she stops using it, I told her don't tell me because it'll be really heartbreaking.

Karen: I think you mean when she stops using it. It’s okay. She's not the person it was designed for.

Bonnie: Yeah, it’s okay. I mean, I might stop using my own planner. I might stop using my own planner.

Karen: Yeah, you always have the option.

Bonnie: All right, is there anything else we wanted to talk about?

Bonnie: I need you to send me your recommendation for a sun guard for travel. Your discount code.

Bonnie: Oh my God, this is so funny because Karen is going to Bora Bora. Wait, isn't it next week?

Karen: Please don't say that. It's like, what's today? It’s 11 days.

Bonnie: It is. It’s next weekend.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: Yeah. I don't know if you’ll get your sun guard in time.

Karen: So I need something that ships express.

Bonnie: See, this is Karen's brain. She's like, oh my God.

Karen: I know, that's totally my brain. I do have a passport and a plane ticket and a suitcase. Some people are already packed. Some people on the Facebook group are like I'm already packed. I'm like, whoa. That’s not my brain.

Bonnie: Yeah, I don't back that far in advance. That's a little extra. Okay.

Karen: But you make a list of all the things you need to pack that far in advance.

Bonnie: I do. I do have a packing list. I might still have my old one. I could send it to you.

Karen: Yeah, send me your old one. And that's so crazy, too, that you made a list, and that you filed it somewhere, and that you could still find it again, and it'll probably take you like two minutes. You're like blah, blah, blah, here it is.

Bonnie: I’ll just search. It's not like I actually like filter through, yeah. I’ll do a quick search and if it's not there because I had a packing list for the Bahamas when we went to Bahamas, Puerto Rico.

Karen: I know. I remember when we first went to the 200k mastermind together. That was like maybe the first trip we actually went on together. And you had planned out what you were going to wear. And I just thought that was so crazy.

Bonnie: Oh yeah.

Karen: And now I kind of try to do that. I try to do that before a trip because then you don't have to think about it. Then you've already done the mental load. You're just like, “I'm going to wear this this day, I'm going to wear this this day.” And it's nice to feel that relaxed on vacation. I learned that from you.

Bonnie: Yeah, thank you. Yeah, that's something I started doing, and yeah, it's been really, because also you don't pack stuff you're not going to wear. I mean, you want to pack some extra.

Karen: I know, I always pack so many things and I never wear them. Exactly.

Bonnie: Okay, remember the thing I told you that I pack now and it would change your life?

Karen: Toilet paper. I actually was thinking that because we just rented this little ski house, and it was so nice. And the only thing that was bad about it was the toilet paper was horrible. And every time I wiped my butt, Bonnie, I was like, “Dammit, Bonnie, why didn't I listen to you?”

Bonnie: Toilet paper always sucks no matter where you are.

Karen: I know.

Bonnie: Even the Four Seasons toilet paper.

Karen: I know. Do you think I should bring some to Bora Bora?

Bonnie: Yeah.

Karen: I'm not checking my luggage, though. So what am I going to have to leave home to bring toilet paper?

Bonnie: Oh, I see. It's like it takes up precious real estate.

Karen: I’ll take a carry-on.

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay. But everyone else, this is a game changer to bring your own, especially if you like Charmin Ultra Soft like I do.

Karen: Is that what we use? Yeah, I think that is what we use.

Bonnie: It's thick. It’s not like a one-ply, like Scott's or whatever.

Karen: Or Cottonelle, we might use that one.

Bonnie: Yeah, Cottonelle is soft. Okay, all right, we've gone off track here.

Karen: I don’t know. Bring it home, Bonnie. What's left? Just like friends are good, friends are good to have.

Bonnie: Yes, make an effort to make friends because they don't just happen naturally like they did in college and med school or whatever social group you were in. It takes time and effort. Someone may not want to be your friend, and that's okay, and vice versa. And I think that's it about friendships.

Karen: Yeah.

Bonnie: So how do people find you, Karen?

Karen: Www.karenleitner, it's L-E-I-T-N-E-R, md.com. Or follow me on Instagram at Karen Leitner MD. Facebook, I'm around.

Bonnie: Yeah, so if you are a woman physician and you want to feel better, Karen is your woman.

Karen: Yeah. I run group coaching programs, and my next one, there's a wait list already for April of this year.

Bonnie: Yeah, if you want to feel better, it's literally called Feel Better. Okay.

Karen: Thanks for having me, Bonnie. This was so fun.

Bonnie: Yeah.

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156: Introduction to Real Estate 2.0

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155: Negotiating Tips for Women Physicians with Dr. Linda Street

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154: Understanding the Patriarchy and Money with Kara Loewentheil

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153: Why You Should Want to Make More Money

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152: The Truth About Why We Believe We Are “Bad” with Money 2.0

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151: The History of Women and Money 2.0

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150: How to Use Style to Create Your Luxe Life with Judith Gaton

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149: Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 2)

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148: Belief, Choices and Money with Sunny Smith MD (Part 1)

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147: Pursuing New Friendships in Adulthood with Karen Leitner

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