232: DPC vs. Concierge Medicine: A Deep Dive with Dr. Jessica Mendelsohn

Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey there, welcome to another episode. So today I have a client and a good friend, Dr. Jessica Mendelsohn. So I first met her, I think it was the 2023 PIMD Con Conference. That's the Physician Real Estate and Entrepreneurship Conference by my good friend, Peter Kim. And she had just enrolled in my program, Money for Women Physicians. And we have just kept in touch and she started a DPC practice, a cash only practice. And she's going to explain the difference between DPC and concierge medicine. Although the definitions definitely overlap and sometimes people use them interchangeably.

And so we actually had Jack's old pediatrician, Dr. Nitin Gupta. And so we'll link that in the show notes for him to talk about when it comes to DPC as a pediatrician. So Jessica is, she's in family medicine. So I actually don't know if she sees both kids and adults, but my thinking is yes.

And I cannot talk about this topic enough because I think going DPC, going cash only is great for so many reasons. It lets you practice medicine the way you want to. It reduces so much overhead because you don't need to have like a biller just to make sure you get paid by insurance. You get to create a much better patient experience. You know, you really have the time to be seen and heard by your physician and they really get to know you.

And so that's one of the reasons why we continue to have a DPC pediatrician for Jack now that we're in Florida. And I just joined a DPC slash concierge physician group and I'm assigned to one physician, but they have a group. So they rotate call. And what I love about them is that they're so proactive about my health. You know, we're looking forward versus being reactive and guess how long my physical was? 90 minutes.

And of course I have access to her. The other day I had a question about whether I should consider going on Ozempic for a number of reasons besides being pre-diabetic and some other things. I'm not really trying to lose weight. Like maybe 10 or 15 pounds would be nice, but it's definitely not my primary purpose. And I was able to have a conversation with her on the phone about it. And so, again, I think it's something many of you should consider.

And I know so many of you think, well, patients actually pay, like, are they willing to do this? And all those other questions you may have. And so Jessica is such a wealth of knowledge. And so I'm excited to have her on to speak more about that. Now, Jessica isn't a speaker at my upcoming conference in Hawaii, but she will be attending. And I know that she'll be a great resource if this is something that you're thinking about. And so that's February 20 to 23rd in beautiful Hawaii at the Four Seasons to find out more, go to wealthymommd.com/conference.

Bonnie: Hi Jessica. Welcome to the show.

Jessica: Thank you, Bonnie. How are you?

Bonnie: Good. I'm so excited that you're coming on today because I know we have so much to discuss. I know people are going to be really interested in hearing about your journey, where you started from and where you are, because I always wanna show examples of what's possible and I know a lot of people are probably where you were before you started on these new ventures and I think any encouragement is always great. So, well, first of all, why don't you introduce yourself?

Jessica: Sure, absolutely. First, thank you so much for having me. My name is Jessica Mendelsohn. I am in Fort Mill, South Carolina. I own New South Family Medicine and the Med Spa at New South.

I am direct primary care physician, family medicine trained, and I opened my practice in 2019. I've been growing ever since and yeah, have two kids. I have boy Charlie, who's 11, and I have a son Henry, who is 7. And my husband works with me at the practice. He started with us two years ago and does all clinical work.

I do a lot of everything and that's me.

Bonnie: Okay. So obviously you didn't finish residency and start this practice out of the gate. So tell us about, like, I don't know if it's more than one job and just tell us, like, what had you make that transition?

Jessica: So I graduated from residency in the early 2000s. And at that time, it was mostly hospital-based medicine. So in Charlotte, North Carolina, there's two really large hospital systems. So at the time, there really was no option other than to work for a large system in a family medicine practice. So I stayed on with the system where I trained and I was there for almost nine years at my practice in Charlotte.

During that time, I did a lot of physician leadership. I was actively involved outside of the practice in various hospital committees. I was our medical director for three years. It was a large practice. There were 14 providers, 11 MDs and three PAs.

And like most of my colleagues got burnout. I had my first son in 2013, and after that, just the balance of trying to manage life outside of medicine and my practice and the leadership work was just more than I wanted to do. So I decided to leave and I actually went into hospice care for five years. I continued to do locums with the hospital system and family medicine. And then I was a part-time medical director at a hospice.

I quickly became more busy in leading a group of physicians and RNs and social workers on goals of care conversations. So I would do that with all of our specialty colleagues, how to have end of life and goals of care conversations. But I started to really miss the relationships of family medicine. I missed my adolescent patients, my families. So I knew if I was gonna go back, I was gonna do it differently.

And that's when I dove into multiple different practice models and found DPC.

Bonnie: So when you say dove into, you kind of, or are you saying that you kind of explored what your options were to kind of create that type of practice that you wanted?

Jessica: Yes. So I looked at telehealth, I looked at home visits, I looked at concierge, I looked at all sorts of different ways to do primary care. And when I found the DPC model, it really just resonated with me in terms of being able to do it solo. And while that has changed significantly over the last 6 years, it was a place where I was able to do it from the ground up. I did not have an MA or any staff for almost a year, and I had no business background prior to opening my practice, so it really allowed me to grow at my own pace.

Bonnie: Well, let's talk about what DPC is. I feel like most people probably know what it is, but let's just pretend, you know, I'm sure some people don't quite understand that model. So let's just define what does it stand for, how does it, is it the same thing as concierge? We've talked about, you know, what are the differences and the overlap, so let's just talk about that for a second.

Jessica: So DPC stands for direct primary care and the direct piece of it means that it's a direct contract between a patient and a physician. So there's multiple, multiple different ways to do it, but the basis really is that my patients pay me directly. There are no third parties. I do not accept insurance, and it's a membership base.

So I describe it a lot like a gym membership, meaning my patients can come see me 30 times a month or they can come once a year and the cost per month is the same. There's no copay or per visit fee. So for that, most of their care is included.

So if they need rapid point-of-care testing, if they are doing a physical, if they have hypertension, if they have depression, if I'm suturing something or removing that, if they need them all removed, those types of things, all of that is included in their membership fee. And then they have access, right? So our visits are 30 minutes to an hour because we cap our patient panel. They can email, they can text, they can call. And so it's much more personal and accessible for people.

Bonnie: Yeah, and how would you say that differs from the concierge model? So for example, we have a DPC for Jack, so his pediatrician is direct, and we do pay a monthly fee, and then she's family medicine. I mean, it is membership and that I do pay directly to them. It's not monthly. It's an annual fee, although you can break it up into a smaller payment.

Because in terms of the care I get, it's very similar. But so some people I thought they were kind of interchangeable, but it sounds like some people do that too, but also there are some key distinctions usually. So let's talk about that.

Jessica: Yeah. So pure DPC is membership-based, whether that's a monthly fee, a quarterly fee, a yearly fee, it is no insurance at all. So then on the other spectrum, you have the concierge model. So that's generally a yearly fee, and then each visit, you still pay your co-pay in billing.

Bonnie: So I don't do that.

Jessica: Okay. And I say this all the time, and there's sort of this saying in the DPC community of, if you've seen one DPC practice, you've seen one DPC practice. The beauty and why I love direct care practices, be it concierge or DPC, is that you can create it however you want. If you wanna work two days a week, that's what you do. If you want it to be full concierge or full DPC or a hybrid of the two, that's what you do.

Bonnie: Yeah, so yeah, I think you're right. That is the distinction, because I do know physicians who take insurance, but then they charge extra on top of that to kind of offer that higher level of service. So yeah, the practice I'm with doesn't charge me for regular visits. Obviously not every single thing is included, but they draw labs there, so that's nice. But they do run labs and vaccines through insurance.

So that's nice. I feel like that's kind of standard in direct primary care. Like we actually took Jack to his person, you know, the flu vaccine will go through insurance in that case.

Jessica: So, okay. So we give patients a choice with labs. We do cash pay, which is pennies on the dollar. Like they pay us, it's what's called a client bill. And so the patients pay us and then we pay LabCorp monthly.

So those are extremely inexpensive. For example, I like to describe a CBC as it's $5 or an A1C is $8.

Bonnie: But tell us how this works. Like you pay LabCorp like a certain amount of money and that allows you to have patients do it for low cost? Is that what you're saying?

Jessica: Patients pay us and then we pay LabCorp. So that's called a client bill in medicine, right? So by doing that LabCorp knows they're going to be paid. And I'm part of a group purchasing organization that has a contract with LabCorp for those low prices.

So LabCorp charges me $3.50 say for a CBC and then I don't upcharge that significantly for patients, just enough to pay my phlebotomist in the practice. Right, so that's where that works. Or a patient can bill insurance and we code it appropriately just like we normally would. Generally the out-of-pocket expense when somebody does that ends up being more than if they had paid cash at our practice.

Bonnie: Okay. This is such like a scam because it's crazy that it's only like to say $3.50 through LabCorp, but if you bill through insurance. So actually in May, I got a panel done and it was CBC, Hebel-Golbin A1C, and it was like vitamin D and a few other things. And it was through "insurance". And I do have a high deductible, so it's not like I was expecting to pay.

It was like $550. It was insane. And I was like, this is just a racket.

Jessica: It absolutely is. And what's interesting, and what I tell people all the time is that that is because of whatever contract LabCorp has specifically with your insurance company. It has nothing to do with your physician's office billing. It has to do between those two companies.

Bonnie: Oh, yeah. But why is it so much more?

Jessica: Because they can. I think for the same reason that getting a Tylenol at the hospital is $50, because there's so many people involved in the process. There's the insurance company, there's the hospital system, there's the doctor, there's LabCorp, versus here, which is, all right, I've got this contract with LabCorp and my patients are gonna pay me for it. And it just eliminates so many middle people that the cost drops significantly.

And I talk about that as DPC being cost savings because I get the question all the time of why would I pay $129 a month for you and I have insurance and that's exactly why that's why DPC pairs so very well because we save money on the back end for people and we have patients who have high deductible plans or patients who are uninsured at all.

And in family medicine, we are trained to do a lot and we don't do it because of time. So not everybody needs an endocrinologist for their type 2 diabetes. We can manage a lot of that, but in a hospital-based system, we have 10 minutes versus here I have an hour. So plenty of time to manage a lot of those things and that drops cost.

Bonnie: No, 100%. I mean, like, I'm sure you've seen those graphs where it shows you over time the amount of administrators just have shot up. And again, as you were saying, when you started your practice, you didn't need all this staff.

So an insurance-based practice, you need a biller. It's like you have to pay someone to make sure you get paid. And when you do get paid, it's like a few months later or they're not gonna pay you and you have to keep fighting. Like it's, you know, I know I'm preaching to the choir here but it is like insane when you think about it. Like it's just mind boggling.

Jessica: Really is. And it's why we pay the most money, like why our healthcare is the most expensive healthcare in the world is because we have so many people doing so many things that are wasteful. And this model for primary care, at least, it takes so much of that waste out. So we're able to charge lower fees and still make a living for us and enjoy medicine again. And patients absolutely love it because they get more personal care and they're paying less over time.

Bonnie: Yeah. So speaking of, you know, the US being the highest cost. I'm going to talk about our story in Greece. Okay, as an example, so like many of you know that I spent a month in Greece with a bunch of my physician, entrepreneur friends and Jessica when we had a few people kind of come by just, you know, to stop by while we were all there. And so Jessica.

Jessica: I love that. Like, let's just pause and say, I just stopped by to see you in Greece.

Bonnie: I was like, hey, I'm going to be in Greece. You want to come? And you're like, yeah. So yeah, she just, she just made a little stop to hang out in Greece.

So I have an epidermal cyst and I'm just one of those cyst makers. And so I had one in my left armpit. I've had it since I was like a teenager. And like Matt is totally grossed out by it. He's just, is like grossed out. And then it is like a little, like little lump. And then Jack calls it my ball. And then he actually said one day that he wants one. And I was like, no, you don't. They just want to like copy you.

Anyway, so it got angry. And I think it was like, cause I was doing a lot of walking and it was hot and sweaty. And it had gotten to a point where I was like, okay, I was hoping it would just kind of like relax, but it didn't. And so I think it was all happening when you happen to be in Greece.

And I made an appointment, actually I didn't, it was like the physician was just like, you just walk in. And it was just, I just walked in and he spoke English thankfully. And I told him, and I'm a dermatologist. So I was like, I need a little shot of Kenalog. Can you do that for me? And he's like, oh, I don't have the Kenalog. And I don't think he was used to doing this. He kind of was like, oh, like he was used to like draining it. And he's like, you know, he was like, I don't think there's anything to drain.

And then I was like, yeah, just these little shot of steroids and it should be fine. And he's like, wait, you go to the pharmacy and if you buy it and come back, I'll do it. And I was like, okay, great. And I was like, what do I owe you? He's like, yeah, nothing. I was like, okay.

And then I went to the pharmacist and then they didn't have exactly what I needed, but it did have, oh, I, he did give me a script for Doxycycline cause I asked, I told him that's what I wanted. So yeah, he gave me a script and did an intramural phase. So I went there, got it filled, and you know, it was like very minimal.

And then you can get certain things that are prescription here, but they're not there. So I actually got two kinds of steroid cream, like the strongest, I think the equivalent of Clobetasol and something else. And it's like less than $10 when if you try to buy Clobetasol here, it can be stupid expensive. And so I just took Doxy and hope for the best.

And then the short story is at some point it was like, all right, this needs to be drained. And so again, since you are, you know, family medicine, I was like, Jessica, can you drain it for me? So we were like, did this whole like, you know, Jimmy rigged sort of IND, you know, in my apartment. And so, and then I came back and it still needed to be drained and now it's all scarred up and I should probably get it taken out before it actually hits again. But I was waiting. You don't want to do it right away.

Jessica: No, I think what was so interesting too was, one, I had the best nurse ever in Jack. He was fantastic. But also I was able to just go to the pharmacy and say, I need an 18-gauge needle to drain a cyst, and do you have X, Y, and Z, and can we get some gauze pads, and all these things that we couldn't do that here.

It would be make an appointment, maybe you'll get an appointment with your doctor three weeks later. They don't have time to do it. They send you to surgery or to dermatology. Like, it just, it was so simple and straightforward, and that's how we try and run our practice.

If a patient needed that, we'd get them in that same day and they would walk in and it would be, okay, this is part of your membership. Good luck, I'll see you next week if you need me. You know, so that's the beauty of this model too is that it keeps it so simple just like that.

Bonnie: Yeah, And definitely cost savings because, you know, usually then you would just go to urgent care and urgent care charges you an arm and a leg. Yeah. It's just anyway. So let's talk a bit about like what roadblocks, obviously when you're starting something new, especially starting a new business. Just tell us about your experience.

Like, did you, was it easy for you to get started? Like, not really in terms of logistics, but like, what did you face? What did you have to kind of work on and what are you doing now?

Jessica: I think that's the biggest piece, right? I think that if you, whatever the business is, it's getting your mindset in the right place to know that it's okay to make mistakes. It's okay if it's messy. It's okay if it doesn't work the first time. All of those things that those of us that own businesses have experienced.

And I do not come from a business background. No one in my family is in medicine and no one in my family has ever owned a business. So I basically said, one of my friends was opening a children's art studio and I thought, if she can open an art studio, I can open a medical practice. And that's exactly what went through my head. And then I just sort of, once the mindset was there, then I deep dove into what the, truly what the logistics were, but not necessarily that mindset piece.

And so it wasn't until getting in there and getting my hands dirty and seeing, okay, I need to pivot here or I need to grow this or I need to learn about marketing, what is that? Okay, now I'm so busy that I need to hire back my time and bring on an MA. And so it isn't until you get comfortable being uncomfortable, at least for me, that I recognized keeping it simple to grow and keeping it simple to scale, truly, if that's what you choose to do. And so luckily for me, what I've done is created a team that understands my mindset and respects it and understands they work for a startup company and have been able to create a culture where everybody welcomes that and is able to pivot. Did I answer your question?

Bonnie: I mean, kind of like, well, let's talk about where you are now because, you know, we heard the beginning where it was just you for the first year. So like, tell us about how many locations do you have? How many people are actually working for you at this point? Right? Because it's not just you anymore.

Jessica: So when I started growing in 2021, really was when I hired a PA and I brought on the med spa team. I knew I was going to need more space, so I started looking. I also knew I wanted to own that space, so I was trying to understand commercial real estate, what that looks like, understand the numbers, and constructed the building that we're in now and almost for a year. So this is a 6,600 square foot building and I have 20 staff, I have 20 employees here. And in 2025, the intention is to grow our second location and potentially do a franchise model.

And my reasoning for that is I want physicians to own their practice. So to me, it's extremely important that everyone has their own practice, that it's physician owned. And so how do I grow this brand and this practice where each location has their own autonomy? But they have our coaching and support. So yes, that's my vision, but I have, it's myself and my husband who joined two years ago. I joke that now I'm his boss both at work and at home.

Bonnie: And he's a physician too, right? I think.

Jessica: So he's family medicine and we had to work through a lot because he worked for a large system for 18 years. We had to deal with his non-compete. The physician I'm looking to hire in first quarter, we're managing what that looks like for him as well. It's those challenges, those things that we have to deal with that are, I think, not necessarily unique to medicine, but really and truly how do you navigate growth and scaling while keeping a certain culture and autonomy.

Bonnie: You talk so like matter of fact, like then I did this and then I did that. And like, I know people listening are gonna be like, okay, she's very different than I am. And so like, what kind of advice, like, cause you're, cause you almost make it sound like you just follow these steps, not that it was laid out for you. And I could just, you know, because I know my listeners would be like, okay, this lady's like on another planet, like I'm not like that.

And so what advice do you have for someone who's like, what I know is like a lot of my clients like who are family medicine or some, in the primary care field, as you said, when you're employed, but in a practice, especially a hospital system, like it just sucks, right?

Because you get so little time, there's all this charting, you don't have autonomy and annoying insurance work, et cetera. And so I know a lot of them aren't happy and this sounds like a pipe dream for a lot of people. They don't feel like, oh, can I really do that? Will people really pay me?

My first DPC pediatrician for Jack, he told me that when he told people about this idea, the older pediatricians were like, why would anyone pay? Like it's not going to work, you know? So did you have any of that?

Jessica: Oh, sure. So to break it down, because I am one of your listeners, right? I have read your book and been through your program, and I would say this, and I say it a lot. If I can do this, so can any other woman or man.

My house, I'm going to break it down like this. My house needs new floors. I need a new roof. I drive a beat-up old car. I have two kids who I joke all the time look homeless when they go to school, and it's okay, it's okay, right? Those things are also all happening at the same time.

I'm managing a senior parent who is sick. I have young children because I had kids late in life. I still am working through coaching in my marriage because now we work together and we're trying to navigate that and it's caused some friction.

So this is not easy. I've had staff come to me crying because of things that are not going well or communication that hasn't occurred. I only just hired a COO level of person three months ago.

So this is, it's messy and it's messy personally, it's messy at home. I didn't know the first thing about QuickBooks. I did my own bookkeeping and screwed up my taxes so bad in 2019. You know, so this is all real genuine stuff. And all of that is also happening while I'm telling this story.

No, I think that's so important because we often don't talk about that. Like I know people look at me or one of my entrepreneur friends and like think it's, I don't know, easy or like whatever. And like, yeah, people don't see like all the, I don't wanna say suffering behind the scenes, but there's a certain level of suffering when you're a business owner, like at least when you're starting and growing, because there's so many skills that you need to learn to run a business. And the vast majority of people, why would you have a business background, especially as a physician? It's not taught in school.

So of course you don't know. So yeah, I think it's just important to highlight that. It's not like it was just a walk in the park for you. Because like the way you speak about it, it's like, oh, yeah, then I did this and I did this and everything's great and, you know, whatever, you know, but.

Jessica: That's funny that you say that. I've never noticed that I talk like that about it. But it's true. And my husband, just last night, we were talking about how this has put a strain on our marriage. There are things that I've needed him to do in the practice as a leader, and that's not what he wants to do.

He wants to practice clinical medicine. So now, you know, there isn't, I heard someone say there isn't necessarily a balance. It's juggling different balls and sometimes, you know, one ball is really high up in the air and you drop another one. And so then you pick that one up and sometimes you have five balls in the air, sometimes you have two. What's the most important one at that given time?

I'll go back to, you know, IND-ing your arm when we were in Greece. Like, we're also still doing those things too, right, at the same time. So that's happening behind the scenes. And it's just, it's nothing other, my favorite word is just messy. Yeah, yeah, lonely too.

I describe it as lonely as well. A lot of times, like just in terms of, there are not a ton of people that think like I do where I live in terms of what I want and my mindset. And so navigating that with a team of people who are your employees, but also we're all very, very close. And so how do you shift between boss and friend and colleague and neighbor. So there's a lot of that.

Bonnie: Yeah, I mean, there's, again, so much to learn. And I think like kind of what we're trying to convey is that like, you're still a human being with normal human problems. And, you know, I like to, what I like to say, and maybe you've heard this phrase I didn't make it up is like, people like you and I were trying to have higher quality problems. You know, like I was at my, I just joined a master when we talked about this and like, I was talking to someone about like, what's the problem you wanna work on? She's like, I just can't get past the $2 million mark.

And like, that's a great, that's a high quality problem. 

Jessica: Yeah, absolutely. It’s funny, I keep thinking, okay, I’m not at eight figures yet.

Bonnie: That's a high quality problem. I love that. That's a great way to, versus like a low quality problem. Yeah. Okay. I'm trying to think like what else I wanted to make sure we covered.

What would you say to someone who is thinking about it, even if it's like not even seriously thinking about it? Because I think a lot of people think about it and again, they think like, well, that's not possible or this is what I hear a lot. Well, where I live, people wouldn't pay that.

Jessica: Right. Right. I hear that a lot as well. And I've coached a lot of people into this type of practice. I actually sat with a physician yesterday for an hour and a half talking about her goals and what she wants to do.

And I will absolutely say this, it can look so incredibly overwhelming, but there's so many different ways to do it that it doesn't have to be. And start small. And my favorite thing to say to people in the very, very beginning is, write a business plan and write a vision statement just for yourself. No one else has to ever see that, but just what is it that you're looking for? What is it that you want?

And then going back and getting a little bit more granular in how can I bite off this small piece this year? How can I bite off this small piece this quarter? How can I bite off this week? You know, setting your goals realistically. And eventually it starts to, some people don't like the word manifest, but I use it all the time. And it tends to really, really do that.

So yes, it's absolutely possible and I know you and I say things like that all the time, but to my core, it truly is. It's a matter of how you are approaching it and what your realistic goals are over the course of one day, one week, one year.

Bonnie: I know a dermatologist who opened up a practice in Honolulu actually, cash only. And she was told like, it's saturated, no one's gonna pay that and she's not having a problem. She grew pretty quickly.

Jessica: People are so ready for something different. And I think that, and I love the book that Alex Hormozi wrote, a $100 Million Offer. One knowing our worth, that's a whole nother conversation. And two, when you make your offer irresistible, and it's in this prime time, if people want something different in medicine right now, then it will absolutely happen.

Bonnie: I think we're, you know, in medicine, we're seeing this patients are very dissatisfied and they want a higher level care. They're tired of getting only 10 minutes. A side note, because I just saw this on Twitter, like, you know, is it CMS that determines the reimbursement rates for doctors? Is it? Yeah, every year they decrease the reimbursement and that is just insane.

It's like we're like the only specialty that like we're basically get reverse inflation. So basically every year you get paid less for the same exact thing. And then this person made a point, but your insurance premium isn't going to decrease. No. It's only going to increase.

It's kind of insane. Like it's such a racket. Anyway, we can talk about this. You know, that's a whole conversation as well in terms of, yes, absolutely. Nodding vigorously over here.

Bonnie: Oh, I want to ask, because since you mentioned that you talked to a doctor, like, is this, I know you were talking about it. I don't want to put you on the spot, but like, are you offering like consultation services for people who are interested in exploring this model?

Jessica: I love that you asked that and thank you. I've gone back and forth. We've had this conversation a couple times, gone back and forth about what would that look like and how would I help somebody and structure that? I would love to, and my intent for 2025 is to put a small course together just with a small cohort of people. I think that that group setting is very helpful for people to ask questions. And certainly if anybody is interested in one-on-one, I would love to talk with them about it.

Bonnie: Yeah, I 100%, I think a group setting, especially for business makes total sense because you just, you not just more collaborative, but like you're just bouncing off ideas. How would people get in touch with you? Like, what's the best way for them to follow, et cetera?

Jessica: Probably. Well on Instagram, we are @newsouthfamilymed and then I am @dr.jessicamd under slash New South, or just you can email me at [email protected]. Can also call us, we're online. You can just even get on the website and send something.

Soon our website will have hopefully my sort of coaching piece to it. But right now it does not. Just email me.

Bonnie: OK. Yeah, we'll put all the links on the show notes, because I'm sure people here would love to. Part of me is like, why try to figure it out yourself when someone's already done it? Especially someone like you who's really been successful in growing. And then I also think, I know you do real estate, I don't know how much, but even just owning the office building, to me that just makes total sense.

If you're a practice owner, you should try to own the building or at least like your little nook of the building. And so.

Jessica: That's a whole conversation as well in terms of the tax savings and ways to, and the reasons why it's okay that you don't get paid like you did as a W-2 employee, right?

Bonnie: Yeah. Okay, awesome. Thanks so much, everyone.

Jessica: Thank you.

Hey there, thanks so much for tuning in. If you loved what you heard, be sure to subscribe so you don’t miss an episode. And if you’re listening to this on Apple Podcasts, I’d love for you to leave a review. Reviews tell Apple that this podcast is, well, awesome. And it will help women find this podcast so that they too can live a wealthy life. And finally, you can learn more about me and what I do at wealthymommd.com. See you next week.