Podcast
110: The Truth About Right and Wrong Decisions
We often categorize past decisions as right or wrong. First of all, what does that even mean? And why are there only two ways to view our past decisions? When we only think in black or white, we seriously limit the positive outcomes we can perceive a decision to have. So, what if there were no right or wrong in this situation?
I have talked about making decisions multiple times on the podcast, but I’ve never really dived deep into looking back at past decisions. If you’re afraid of taking risks, making the wrong decision, and losing money, you need to lean into what I’m putting down today.
Tune in this week to discover the truth about right decisions versus wrong decisions. I’m sharing how this kind of all-or-nothing thinking makes decision-making even harder than it needs to be, and how you can view any decision you make any way you want to.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- Why only giving ourselves two opposing options when we look back at our past decisions doesn’t help us accurately assess them.
- How black-or-white thinking about how we view decisions often leads to indecision.
- Where I felt I’d made wrong decisions in my business in the last year, and why that wasn’t necessarily true.
- How to see where you need to look at your decisions through a wider lens.
- Why it’s 100% up to you to decide whether you made the “right” decision or not.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- 105: Your Past, Present, and Future Self
- 109: Let it Be Simple
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Welcome to Episode 110. So, if you listened to the last episode where I talk about keeping things simple as much as possible, I had mentioned that I was really excited about the next few episodes because I guess you could call them new idea babies.
I mean, they're not new ideas, but it's just more like I just started riffing in my brain about some common themes that I've seen around my clients and in my life. And I know we all have human brains, and human brains kind of have like the same glitches, I like to call them. Or thought errors but I think glitches are a bit more easier to relate.
So I have talked a lot about making decisions, I haven't talked that much about looking back at past decisions. I mean, I have a little bit in terms of, I think it was the future self, past self episode, but I kind of want to break it down a bit more. And now I feel like I have something to help those that are so afraid of taking risk and losing money. Let's get started.
A lot of us categorize past decisions as right or wrong, right? I’m just laughing because, first of all, what does right or wrong mean? And we all have our definitions, okay? So in the context of money, most of us will probably categorize a wrong decision if we lost money. And here's what I want to question, why are there just two choices, right and wrong for decisions that you've made in the past?
And this is something that's just really common, the concept is called all or none thinking, where we literally have only two options and they're the complete opposite, right? It's like it was either right or wrong and there's nothing in between. Kind of like you're pregnant or not pregnant, there is no such thing as a little pregnant, right? That's not a good example.
But notice that you've really limited yourself to only two ways to categorize it. And why do we choose right and wrong as the actual choices? Like, what if there was no such thing as right? What if there was no such thing as wrong?
Now, I don't pretend to know the history of why we do this. Well, I know a little bit, meaning that when you have a perfectionistic brain, which is you, all or none thinking is really common. Like it's either perfect, or it's not perfect. Nothing in between, we can't even celebrate what we did well because it wasn't perfect. And so it's really similar to right and wrong.
I also think the whole right and wrong thing is also steeped in religion. I come from a Christian background so I can only relate to that, like we're told there's a good and bad way to do things. And so right and wrong is very similar. So I just want you to consider these questions, why are you limiting yourself to only two choices? And why are the two choices right versus wrong?
And then I also want you to ask yourself this question, what do I mean by a right decision versus a wrong decision? Now, this is going to be probably specific to whatever decision you think was wrong in the past. And I just want to share that last year, I really thought of as me making a lot of wrong decisions in my business. Now, I also knew that I learned a lot about things in my business.
So kind of in my mind, I was like, yeah, I'm not really thinking it was all wrong because I know I learned something. But there was still something there to uncover. And basically, you know, for this situation for me I realized what the connection, or rather how I was defining wrong. And basically, here’s what it was, losing money, making less money, having less money, equals wrong, equals wrong decision. So whatever decision I made that led to that was obviously the wrong decision.
So I want you to think of a decision you made where you think it was wrong, okay? And I really want you to try and figure out why am I thinking that it was wrong? Because you basically made some connection to this happened, I got this outcome. And because I got this outcome it was obviously the wrong decision.
And let me just add another layer of why, not why we do this, but why it feels so bad to make a wrong decision. And it really comes down to this, we make not just the decision wrong, we make ourselves wrong. We beat ourselves up. And how I define beating yourself up is you're talking to yourself negatively. You're being shitty to yourself, basically.
And here's what I see happen when you think you've made a series of wrong decisions. A, like I said, you're feeling horrible about it, you're making yourself wrong. You're telling yourself mean things. What I see happen a lot, and this happened for me too, is then you're afraid to make new decisions.
You spend a lot of time in indecision, you spent a lot of time thinking about the pros and cons. But the only reason why you do that is because you think you might make a wrong decision and you've literally trained yourself that wrong decision equals bad, you're going to feel bad about yourself, mainly because you're going to be so mean to yourself.
So here's what I want you to consider, what if right and wrong just wasn't a thing when it comes to decisions, and honestly, everything else? We are the ones calling it right or wrong. We are the ones deciding what is right, what is wrong, and why. And also, we just made it up, like literally just made it up. I know it doesn’t feel that way, but that's actually what's happened.
You are just literally making up, this happened and so clearly that was wrong or right. As if like that's the thing. And what I mean by that’s a thing is it’s as if that's factual. And here's the thing, a lot of your friends or peers might agree with you. Yeah, that was the wrong decision, or that was the right decision. Who cares if they agree with you or not? It's not up to them, who cares if they agree? Really, we're the ones who decide it's right or wrong, not other people.
And what if there is no right or wrong? What are some other ways you can think about the decision? What if you just decided that every decision you've made in the past was the best decision ever? And if you need a reason as to why it was the best decision, because I know some of you are arguing with me, like that's crazy, because you made a decision and did something, meaning you made a decision and took action.
In fact, when people ask me what coaches do, simply I help my clients make decisions and take action. I help them make decisions for them by trusting themselves that they can make the best decision for them. I can't make that decision for them. I know a lot of my clients want me to tell them what to do. And it's not that I never make suggestions, but honestly, like, my goal for all of my clients is that you always have agency over your life.
And you always do, even when it doesn't feel like it. Because whenever you're thinking it's not your decision, you literally are saying that someone else makes a better decision or that it's not up to you. So if there was no such thing as right or wrong, if there was way more than just two options, what if a decision that you made was neutral? Meaning that the decision in itself has no inherent meaning.
And that's kind of what I've been saying because we're the ones who make up the meaning. I joke a lot, mainly because it's true, we are as humans meaning making machines. And I'm not saying it's bad to do that, because otherwise we would kind of be like robots who didn't enjoy your have feelings, but the reason why that concept, I think, is so important for all of you to really not just understand, but to get is that we're the ones making up the meaning. No one else is.
It doesn't matter what anyone says, you are the one who decides the meaning of a decision that you've made in the past. And since you are the only person that can make up the meaning of your past decision, why would you tell yourself that you made a wrong or shitty decision? Why would you choose to be shitty to yourself? Why would you choose to beat yourself up?
I think a lot of us think that beating ourselves up is useful and will produce some kind of better behavior. It doesn't, okay? And if you're a parent, shaming your kids is not useful. If someone shames you, like tells you that you've done something wrong and you feel bad about yourself, does that actually help you? I mean, maybe in some instances it has, but what if it's not necessary? What if beating ourselves up is completely optional? It is completely optional, it always is.
Now, I sometimes think that not beating yourself up, specifically being nice to yourself for whatever has happened will mean that I'll become some lazy person who only eats cookies and watch Netflix. What if that's not true? What if we'll actually take more positive action and feel better as we're doing it?
I mean, when I really think about it it's kind of crazy to me that we think feeling bad about ourselves is useful. Like feeling guilty, feeling shame, et cetera. And I get that it doesn't always feel like a choice, but what if it was a choice? And if it is a choice wouldn't you want to feel good about yourself, right?
So that's what I want you to ponder, what would it be like to always tell yourself that you've made the best decision, to always tell yourself that you did a great job? And I know some of you are like, but won't that make me like a narcissist, or irresponsible or whatever outcome that you really don't want? What if it doesn't? Why don't to at least try it? And if you don't like the way it's going, you can always go back to being crappy to yourself.
Now, in terms of a, what I call a brain science explanation as to why this does actually work, it’s because when you are nice to yourself, which feels good, you are literally making your own dopamine. Because when you feel good, your brain pays attention. It's like, whoa, hey, we're feeling good, this feels good, let’s squirt a little dopamine.
And when that happens, you want to do more of the feeling good. And when you are feeling good about yourself, you get inspired, you get motivated, you get determined, you feel committed. And these emotions I just mentioned, they're all what I call amazing fuel for actions that will help you create the outcome that you want. Because listen, when you're feeling shame, when you're just feeling so bad about yourself, what do you do?
I mean, at least I don't do anything productive. I just want to like clean my closet, yeah, watch TV. Like I just do whatever I can to distract myself because I don't want to feel shitty about myself. The thing is, by doing these other things I don't actually feel better. I might think I am, but I'm really just avoiding feeling bad. And I'll do anything that I can to not feel bad. But the thing is, I'm not actually feeling good about myself when I'm avoiding it.
All right, so I know I talked about a lot of stuff. I know I probably went into some complicated tangents, but here's really what I want you to walk away from this episode is, what if there's no right or wrong? What if beating yourself up is optional? What if being kind and feeling good about yourself is actually going to help you going forward? Okay, I will talk to you guys next week.
Hey, if you're ready to create wealth, I want to invite you to join my program, Money For Women Physicians. You'll join a community of like-minded women physicians, who are committed to creating wealth, just head over to wealthymommd.com/money to learn more.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
109: Let it Be Simple
I really love thinking on and problem-solving the things that come up for my clients most often. One thing I’ve noticed a lot in my work as a coach is that, as humans, we love to make things complicated. We like to hang out in our brains, and we get overwhelmed. We do this with money, but we also do it when we’re learning anything new.
Especially as physicians, we think we need to learn everything at once and we pride ourselves on being able to absorb large amounts of information in our profession. I get that you’re eager to jump in and learn everything there is to know about money, weight loss, and thought work, but this makes the process more complicated than it needs to be. So, I’m sharing a simple solution with you in today’s episode.
Tune in this week to discover how to simplify literally anything. I’m sharing how to decide for yourself what simplicity looks like, and how doing so will allow you to really learn and experience anything that you’re currently trying to wrap your brain around.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- Why we love to make things complicated, and why anything can be simple if you allow it to be.
- The most common objections I get from clients when helping them simplify learning about money.
- How to develop confidence and trust in your ability to achieve any goal.
- 3 questions that have helped me tremendously in simplifying any process for myself and my clients.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Defining Wealth for Women by Dr. Bonnie Khoo
- Ep #108: Your Words Create Your World
- The Life Coach School
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Welcome to episode 109. So I am really excited about the next two episodes because it's stuff that I just recently sort of figured it out for myself and for you guys. So one of the things I really love doing, in case you haven't noticed, is I really just love thinking about things and problem solving.
And I think of it, first of all, it's something I just love to do and naturally do. And I really love just thinking about how I can solve for the most common or the problems I see with my clients. And what I mean by problems is the things they come to me most often, like the questions they have or the, I call them, thought errors.
Like the things that they are thinking, that a lot of them are thinking, and I go to work on how I can help solve them. Like in the moment I'm always able to coach you about whatever is going on, but then I'm just always thinking about what is the way I want to explain and teach this in the future?
And what I mean by that is when I see sort of common themes, it tells me that, well it tells me that they are common themes that you guys have. And then it also tells me this is something I really need to think about, process, and really think of a clean, simple way to explain it.
So let's get started. So I want to talk about how we love to make things complicated. And I think it's because we are just such thinkers, we spend a lot of time hanging out in our brains and then we get overwhelmed. Like I've seen this pattern over and over again, and this is mainly for the ladies in Money For Women Physicians and just when I see people trying to tackle something new.
And if you've read my book, Defining Wealth For Women, I think one of the first things, maybe the second chapter I talk about how so many of us think that money is complicated. And I think this is just common, whenever we're learning something new, we think it's complicated. And then remember my last episode where I said your words create your world, so when you think it's complicated, you literally make it complicated.
And this is how it looks like for a lot of the women I coach, is once they decide that they want to learn money, or whatever else it is, they think they have to learn everything at once. And since I mostly coach doctors, we, at least I do, we pride ourselves in being able to absorb lots of information. And not just pride, like that's what we did, right?
I remember when I first started medical school, people were telling me the analogy to med school compared to like college is that it's like drinking from a fire hose. And I forget who said it to me, but I felt like that was a common thing that people would say in terms of that transition and why the first year of med school is so challenging for many of us, because we have not been, at least before in college, we didn't have to do that.
Now, when I think of college to high school, that's another jump right? But then it like, I don't know, it's like 10 times more volume of things to learn. And I think we carry that same type of mentality for lots of new topics, like money.
So yeah, we love to make things more complicated. We think we have to learn all the things all at once. And guess what? Then it becomes complicated and it becomes really overwhelming. And when you're overwhelmed you don't do anything, you're like, paralyzed.
And I get it, like you're so eager to jump in and learn money and I see this more especially if you think you're really behind. I've talked about that before, everyone thinks they're behind when it comes to money. Okay? So yeah, if you think you're behind and if you think money is complicated, you just get so overwhelmed.
Okay, so here's the solution for this, okay? The solution is to make it really simple. Now you might be asking, okay, but how? I think it really comes down to two things, and this is something I'm thinking about all the time in my business because I'm always trying to make my business complicated in general. And my assistant, God bless her, she's always like, wait a minute, why is this so complicated?
And also, everything can be made simple if you let it. Okay? So here are the two ways that I have seen, or at least that have helped me tremendously, and how I coach my clients. First, it's simply asking yourself, what if this could be simple? How can I make this simple?
This is something I ask myself all the time when I notice I'm going through what I call a make things complicated rabbit hole. Okay? And because we think so fast, we're like literally jumping from one thing to another, it can get complicated really quickly.
And so when I notice myself doing this, I literally pause and ask myself, okay, what if this was simple? How can I make it simple? There's a way to make this simple. And the way I think of like, how I define simple is like focusing on one thing at a time.
And like I said earlier, I think because it's our tendency to want to like inhale information from every angle on every side, because if we don't, we can't learn it. And we're in such a rush to learn it because we all think we're behind, right?
And so I'm always telling my clients to slow down, there's no rush. And what's the next thing you have to do? Pick one thing to focus on. One thing. And of course, I get objections, like, yeah, but I'm behind, I need to learn all the things. I think sometimes we also think that if we focus on one thing at a time, it’s as if that's like a linear thing.
What I mean by that is let's say you're like, I'm just making this up, but let's say it takes like, I don't know, four weeks to figure out how to budget. Then you might think, oh my God, it's going to take me another four months to figure out my 401k plans, or my retirement accounts. And I just want to say that maybe that's not true.
It might be in the beginning, I can't speak to all of you in terms of how you internalize and sort of like figure things out and process things. But what I've seen is that is not the case. Meaning like once you start on one thing, whether or not you complete it, and what I mean by whether or not you complete it, meaning that usually when you start with one thing it's easier to start another thing because you've already started the thing. I'm going to give you a concrete example, in case you're getting confused, okay?
And as you develop that comfort and trust, and confidence around money, well, guess what? You become more confident and learning more, and you can take on more. So basically, what I'm saying is don't make learning money a fire hose, in the beginning anyway.
I'm trying to think of another analogy when it comes to water. But just think of it as like, I don't know what’s something easier? I don't really have one, but I'm just like thinking of like a kitchen faucet that's like not on high power, whatever. I think you guys get it.
Okay, so let me just give you a concrete example. And this is actually related to my weight loss goal. I'm pretty sure I've shared with you guys that I made a goal to lose 15 pounds by my birthday at the end of June. And I've wanted to lose weight on and off for a long time. I don't think I've necessarily been obsessed about losing weight, like I just kind of go through periods where I want to.
And I do it through a mixture of eating better, eating less, whatever, and working out. But then I never quite learned how to maintain it. Like I got really good at losing weight, but then once I did, I went back to eating the way to before or just kind of got lazy about it.
And let's just say one of you guys have a goal about getting a six pack, although I don't know if that's something women really want to do. But let's just use it as an example. And then when you get there, you still have to maintain it. Meaning you still have to do crunches or whatever it is that you need to do to get a six pack. I don't even know, like I know it involves ab work, but probably some other things too.
Like you just can't stop, right? Like when you lift weights and you get to whatever the definition you want, you can't stop working out. Okay, I just realized I got off a tangent here. Let me go back to what I mean by making it simple. That was just a long winded way of trying to get to my point.
Okay, see, I just made things really complicated, it's just how it is, okay? But I stopped myself, so this is actually perfect. This was not intentional, actually. So here's what I decided to do in terms of this weight loss goal. So the first thing is I committed to doing it and I just decided like it was literally a decision to do it.
And honestly, once I made that decision to commit, it was so easy. But what I did differently this time is I was like, why don't I just start with one thing, focus on one thing? Because before I would like go with like all cylinders wide open. Like okay, I'm going to eat better, I'm going to make all these plans, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that, and I'm going to work out, and blah, blah, blah, go to Orangetheory, go to yoga.
What I did instead this time was to focus on one thing at a time. And guess what? Not only is it easier, but you greatly increase your chances of actually getting it done. And so what I decided to do is just focus on my eating initially. And once I felt really comfortable and confident, then I can add on some movement.
I've actually, at least at the time of the recording, I haven't actually started adding the movement. And I'm not giving myself a deadline to start it because I know I will. Like I trust myself that that's just going to happen naturally because I'm just going to want to do it.
And then here's the thing I want to say about the eating part, and this is not related to making it simple. But I know a lot of you want to lose weight, I took the time to actually take a stop overeating course. So I'm in Self-Coaching Scholars, which is the Life Coach School’s sort of coaching product in addition to certified life coaches. It's like 300 bucks a month, it's like the best deal on Earth in my opinion.
And she has all these courses on weight loss. So I decided to actually learn it. Like I know the principles because, in case you didn't know, part of my life coach training was actually weight loss coaching and drinking less or over drinking coaching, I just don't do that in my coaching practice. But I've definitely coached some of my clients, my private clients one on one, because that's just a much more customizable coaching relationship.
And so I learned all the things like one video at a time, I wasn't trying to like get it all done in like one day. And I really spent time deciding to pick like, I'm going to work on one thing about my eating. And it really came down to this for me, stop overeating, like literally, by really learning and understanding the difference between being satiated versus being full, okay?
So I was like, that is the first thing I need to work on. And once I figured that out, and when I say figured it out, it's not about like figuring it out in my mind, it was figuring it out in terms of what did that feel like in my body? Like what are the signals? What does it feels like for me to be satiated versus being full? And they're different, right? They feel different.
And then I know what it's like when I overeat, it's like feeling full on extreme and my stomach hurts and I just feel gross. So that is literally the only thing I focused on in the beginning, okay? And so that's just an example of keeping things simple, making it simple.
Everything can be made simple, okay? And you know what's interesting about this weight loss journey? I'm just like kind of chuckling because in the past I would spend so much time counting calories. It’s not necessary at all. That doesn't mean that you want to not eat healthy or think about how you want to eat, that's not what I'm saying. But it's really not necessary if you want to lose weight, at least for me, and probably many of you.
As you know, I can't generalize for everyone because we all have different body types and et cetera, et cetera. So I'm speaking in generalities, but I'm guessing it's going to apply to many of you. In fact, I have been able to lose weight. So, so far I've lost 10 pounds. And I picked 15 arbitrarily. To me it's not about getting to the 15 pounds less, which would end up being about 125 pounds. But I know that at 125 I'll be around the weight that I want to be, okay?
And I have lost 10 pounds without counting a freaking calorie, okay? So if any of you are driving yourself crazy counting calories, I just want you to consider that maybe you actually don't have to. I know it's kind of proselytized to count calories, and it's not the only way. I mean, you can do that, and I used to do that. Like count it and then like, oh, but if I exercise I can add 300 more calories.
It's just such a waste of time, like looking back how much time I spent doing that. Of course it worked because I think I just was paying more attention to things. It’s just so much easier if I stop eating when I'm no longer hungry and I'm satiated.
Okay, so let's sort of summarize what I've been talking about today. We love to make things complicated, it doesn't have to be. I want you to ask yourself whenever you notice that you're like getting into the weeds and going through this what I call complicated rabbit hole, pause. Well, first you have to notice that this is happening and then you want to pause and consider these questions.
What if it could be simple? How can I make this simple? What is the one thing I need to focus on right now? Just one thing. And then when you're done with that, you pick another thing. And it snowballs, okay? Because you're going to develop the comfort, the confidence, and the motivation, frankly, to tackle more.
All right, that's what I have for you guys. I'll talk to you next week.
Hey, if you're ready to create wealth, I want to invite you to join my program Money For Women Physicians. You'll join a community of like-minded women physicians who are committed to creating wealth. Just head over to wealthymommd.com/money to learn more.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
108: Your Words Create Your World
About 20 years ago, I took a personal development course. One of the programs was about communication, and while I don’t remember all of the details of that course, there was one sentence that really sticks out for me: your words create your world.
This basically means that the words that come out of your mouth create your reality. I’m sure you’ve heard some version of this before, but I’ve found it to be 100% true. The words we use to describe our experience, even internally, affect how we experience our lives. So, what are you telling yourself about your own life?
Tune in this week to get clear on the ways you’re relinquishing control of your life through the words you speak, both outwardly and to yourself. I’m also sharing some amazing news for you if you have outstanding student debt, so keep your ears open for that.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- Why the words we use have such a profound effect on our experience.
- How the words we use directly impact our thoughts and feelings.
- Why we tell ourselves we don’t have a choice about how we approach our lives.
- How to start exercising the control you have over how you live your life by choosing your words more intentionally.
- Why your outstanding student debt might mean you’re currently leaving thousands of dollars on the table.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- 102: What You Need to Know About Student Loan Forgiveness with Travis Hornsby
- Landmark Worldwide
- Defining Wealth for Women by Dr. Bonnie Khoo
- Student Loan Planner
- Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown
- Helpful blog posts on the recent loan changes by Student Loan Planner
Disclaimer: Some of the above links are affiliate links meaning I may receive a commission if you purchase using my link.
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey everyone, welcome to episode 108. So the actual meat of the episode is going to be really short, or maybe I just really have two unrelated things to talk about. In any case, I really want to make sure that if you have student loans, that you are aware of two sort of ridiculous, amazing, whatever you want to call it, updates to loans that have been possible because of the pandemic.
Now, whether or not you agree with the current president, he has made basically sweeping changes. And many folks, this is not just limited to physicians by the way, because people other than doctors also have federal student loans, right? Lawyers, pharmacists, anyone who went to college and beyond.
And so here's the deal, and I'm giving a very brief summary, and it's possible I'm going to get some details wrong. So like I said, this is for folks with federal student loans. Now the thing is, some of you may think that you have private loans. And what I have found by talking to my really good friend, Travis, he's the founder of Student Loan Planner, and I'll talk about him a bit more in a bit.
Some of you folks out there have federal loans, but you think you have private loans. So I just want you to double check, it’ll just take a few minutes, hopefully, of your time. Now, how do you know if for sure you have private loans? If you, yourself, privately refinanced the loans with a company like Sofi, for example. But it still doesn't hurt to double check and just make sure, you know, for that peace of mind.
So two major things have happened this year, one that was announced just a few weeks ago, at least when I was recording the podcast at the end of April. So the first thing is the PSLF waiver. PSLF stands for Public Service Loan Forgiveness, and like the title says it basically provides student loan forgiveness if you work for the public service. Now, that's defined as working for a nonprofit, basically, okay? And you need 120 payments, which is basically 10 years.
Now, there's a lot of stipulations to this. First of all, the program started, I think it was 2006 or 2007. So if your loans were before then you're out of luck because the program just wasn't instituted. Kind of like Roth IRAs, they weren't always a thing. So you couldn't do one before it was created, which I don't remember the date, but it was around when I was in college.
And you also need to have a specific loan type called direct loan. So I know so many of you have federal student loans, but since you didn't have the right loan type, not that you're out of luck, but now it’s going to take extra time to get to those 10 years. But this waiver actually helps you with all of that.
So number one, you still have to fulfill the basic criteria of 120 payments and working for a nonprofit because, for example, you may have worked five or six years for a nonprofit and that includes years in training. It does not include years in school, but your internship, residency, et cetera all count. And some of you have had very long trainings, right? So that counts. But you may have started working at a private practice right after, which generally does not count.
So anyway, back to what the PSLF waiver does. It basically lets you take your current federal loans that are of the wrong loan type for PSLF and lets you convert them to direct loans. But you have to do this before the deadline, which is October of 2022, okay? And there's a little extra cherry on top for this.
So let's say you have a bunch of federal loans and they have different amounts of payments that you've made, and this is pretty typical. So for example, loan one may have 50 payments, loan two may have 120 payments, these are the non-direct. And then your direct loan may have 100 payments. But when you convert these all to direct loans, I think the actual word is consolidate but you get what I mean, the loan with the highest number of payments supersedes all the payments.
Meaning, let's say you have the direct loans I just mentioned in the example, 100 payments, but one of your federal loans that isn't a direct loan has 120 payments. When you convert it all to direct, it's as if you've made 120 payments in the direct loans, as if they were always direct. So this is like crazy, okay?
And I think, don't quote me on this, if you do end up having more than 120 payments, I think you might be eligible for a refund, but don't quote me on that. Okay, that's the PSLF waiver and that's been out for some time now.
Okay, now let's talk about the new thing called the IDR waiver. Now, what this does, again, I am summarizing so please always double check what I'm saying. Basically, if you have periods of forbearance that are at least 12 consecutive months, those months will count as if you made payments. Let me say that again, if you have long periods of forbearance defined as 12 consecutive months or more, they will count as payments. So let's say you have 12 months of forbearance consecutive, it'll count as 12 payments.
Now, there's a lot of you who have non-consecutive months or forbearance, and I think there is another way around the rule, it's something like a certain amount of months within a three year period. It's some version of that, so make sure you look it up.
And my friend Travis told me that if you believe that your student loan lender, whatever they're called, strong armed you into forbearance or where you have non-consecutive months. Basically, if you feel like your lender is shitty, and many of these lenders are shitty, you may have heard of the lawsuits against them at least Nelnet, I think, and maybe even Navient. You can actually file a complaint, which may or may not work in your favor, but you don't get what you don't ask for.
Okay, so long story short, if you kind of zoned out while I was saying all this, if you have federal loans you need to pay attention. Okay, that's basically the basic gist. And I really gave a high level summary, so I want you to make sure that you're not leaving money on the table.
One of my clients got over $350,000 forgiven with the PSLF waiver, because this was before the IDR waiver was even announced. So listen, there's a lot of details and paperwork you need to file. And if you're like me and would rather schedule time with an expert to save a lot more time, then I strongly recommend Travis and his team at Student Loan Planner, studentloanplanner.com, we will link it in the show notes.
I've known Travis since, gosh, I think at least 2017 and I've really only heard amazing, positive feedback about their team. So the way it works is you schedule a consult, and they are booked a few weeks out now.
And so even if you're not sure you want to look into this, I want you to book a consult because you can cancel. And please cancel instead of not showing up to your consult because they are getting booked out because all the student loan people are getting basically bombarded and overwhelmed in a good way with folks wanting to make sure that they're not leaving money on the table.
And after this consult call with his team, you get six months of email support. If you book a consult using my link or simply mention my name, Bonnie Koo, or Wealthy Mom MD, you will actually get an additional six months of email support for a total of 12.
Now, it's pretty typical, after you have a consult more questions might pop up in your mind or maybe you forgot about something, some detail, so that's why they offer that email support afterwards. So I just want to make sure you guys all know about this.
I'm going to be talking about this probably between now and October because people literally are leaving hundreds and thousands of dollars on the table. And this is a life changing amount. And what I mean by that is that monthly payment that was going towards student loans can go towards investments, can go towards other things that you'd rather spend your money on then a loan.
All right, so that's my little rant about student loans. And I actually want to tell you a story about Travis. I had mentioned that I've known him since 2017 or so. So I did a live conversation with him about student loans, I've done two actually. But we did a second one because of the new update with the IDR waiver.
And after the call him and I had a private conversation and just catching up because we haven't seen each other recently. The last time I saw him in person was when I lived in Philadelphia and that was a few years ago. So I was reminiscing about a conversation that we had in 2018. So in 2018 I attended FinCon, so this was the fall of 2018.
Now, FinCon is a conference for anyone in financial media. So podcasters, bloggers, those type of people, not so much for consumers. And so I remember seeing Travis, you know how conferences are, you run into people, have side conversations. And so I think we actually did plan to meet.
So anyway, I was really excited to tell him about my plan. And I'm just laughing at myself, I'm not laughing at you because you might think I am when you hear my story. So I was really excited about this plan I had concocted, or rather calculated based on all the number crunching that I was doing. Because at that time, this was just a few years ago, I was all about the figuring out my financial independence number. And plugging numbers into the calculator, compound interest calculator, blah, blah, blah.
So if you're like, “I have no idea what you're talking about.” It's basically the number that people talk about, this is basically in the context of stock market investments inside of a retirement account. So basically, for every million dollars you have in retirement, that ends up being about $40,000, a year to live on.
And in case you're wondering why is it only $40,000 when you have a million, because you want that income to be paying you for a long time because most of us live a very long time. So let's just say you retire at 50, and you die at 90, so you need to make sure you don't run out of money. And so basically, when you withdraw $40,000 out of every million, called the 4% rule, it's highly unlikely you will run out of money.
And this assumes that the money is invested. So that's just a side note, and if you don't know what I'm talking about, don't worry about it. Basically the gist of the story is I had basically figured out a way to achieve what I coined at the time as pre-FI, pre-FI. Meaning the number where you can start working part time because the money that's in retirement, that's invested will continue to grow even if you put less money in it.
So basically, in my mind I had like concocted this number before the full retirement number where you can cut down. And so I forget exactly how much time that was going to be for me, but let's just say it was something like, oh my God, in five years, maybe it was 10. Let's just say 10 years. Travis, in 10 years I can go part time. I think it was less, but I honestly don't remember at this point.
And I'm thinking he's going to say something like, that is so amazing. Congratulations. That's so smart of you. He did not say any of those things. In fact, he said, “Why aren't you just going part time now?” And when he said that, I was not happy. I thought he was being kind of a jerk. I mean, he's not a jerk, but you know how friends sometimes say things and you're like not happy about it? So that was one of those moments.
And I honestly don't remember the rest of the conversation. But basically, he just challenged my thinking. Because obviously, as you can tell, I had come to this conclusion based on a plan that I could see where it could work. Does that make sense? And what he challenged me was that let's just throw away that stupid calculation you just did. That's basically what he said.
And he's like, but what if you could actually do that now? And I didn't have an answer back then. But what I can tell you looking back at that conversation, this is literally why I do what I do. Because so many of you think that if you have the perfect plan, the roadmap, where you can see exactly not even where you want to go, but how you're going to get there, then you feel better.
I'm trying to like think of the word or phrase, like it helps you believe that it's going to happen. That's what that's the phrase I was looking for. And so I just want to offer that maybe that's not true. And when we limit ourselves to the plan that we have in mind, to the roadmap that we either created ourselves, or copied, or picked from Google, whatever, you are seriously limiting what's possible.
And so I didn't mean to actually tell this full story about Travis but I think it's working out greatly. Like if I literally thought that was what I was going to do or just stayed on that literally one track track, I would not have the life I have now, truly. And I’m not saying the life I had was bad, but I was able to go “part time” a lot sooner than my plan.
And side note, the whole full time versus part time is like steeped in time for money, which I talk about a lot. So I actually hate those phrases because it also insinuates that if you go part time you should make part time money or some version of that. And that is also not true because money doesn't come from time. And I'm actually very close to working only three days a week and still making lots of money. So there's that.
Okay, so long story short, the gist of this story is that you may have put a little box around yourselves, but you can't see the box. You know, have you watched The Matrix? It's kind of like that, you may not know what's actually going on. And that was a moment when I had that conversation with Travis that really sticks out on my mind.
And a similar moment is when I started working with my coach because she did not see the limits I was placing on myself with regards to the business and other things I want to create my life. Okay, that is actually not what I want to talk about on this show. But the actual content is actually really short and sweet.
So here's what I wanted to say, about 20 years ago I took a personal development course. And it was by Landmark. And I remember one of the programs was, it was about communication. It may have been called, yeah, I think it was called the communication course, because I think we called it cap for short. Whatever, it was about communication.
I don't remember specifics, but I remember one sentence and I would think about the sentence often. And here's the sentence, your words create your world. Meaning that the words coming out of your mouth creates a reality. I'm sure you guys have heard this before. But the reason why I bring this up is because of Brene Brown.
Now I've been talking about Brene a lot on this podcast, and even in my emails, et cetera because I'm just so in love with her book, Atlas of The Heart. And I think I may have told you, not only did I buy the book, I bought it on audiobook. And I wasn't going to because I have the book, but then someone told me that, A, she reads it. Which I have some of her books on Audible and I think there's a book where she didn't read it and it just was not as good.
So she narrates it, but she also adds little stories and things that aren't in the book, which she's allowed to do because she is the author. And the reason why I say that is when I was recording my book, because I narrate it. And if you don't know I have a book, it's called Defining Wealth For Women. And if you haven't heard of it, then you must get my book, and there's an audiobook version if you're more of an audiobook person.
And when I was narrating, I remember my sound engineer telling me if it was a professional voice actor, they have to literally say every word in the order it's written. But as the author you can do whatever you want because it’s your book. Anyway, that was kind of a bit of a side note.
So the reason why I'm mentioning Brene Brown is Brene has a TV show based on the book. So I was watching that, this is actually where this comes from. So she talked about how the words we use to describe what we're thinking and feeling actually change our experience of what we're experiencing. Did you guys get that?
I'm going to say it again, the words we use to describe our experience, including our thoughts and emotions, affects how we experience things. I say this a lot to my clients inside of my program. I will literally gently correct what they're saying not in a, well, maybe they think it's annoying. But I do it from a place of oh my God, if you just change this one word, it's totally going to change everything. Because that's how powerful words are.
Because here's a common thing that you can use in your own life. So a lot of my clients will say things, “Well, I have to do this, I have to do that.” And here's the problem with that phrase, “I have to.” First, it's as if you have no choice in the matter. Because you always have a choice. Always. Two, you give all your power away as if you don't have control over your life, right?
You're able to take back your power and agency when you change that phrase to, “I choose to do this, I choose to do that.” And not just say I choose to, but you can also add things like some of my clients will say, “Well, I have to pick up my kids,” or “I have to make dinner for my kids.” This is a common sort of phrase, especially when it has to do with kids.
And I'll gently correct them. I’m like, “You don't have to pick up your kids.” And I'm laughing because they usually look at me really weird. I'm like, “No, no, no, you really don't have to. There are parents who literally don't pick up their kids and abandon them.” And so I'll say something like, “Try this on, I pick up my kids because I want to pick them up and take them home because I'm their mom and I love them.”
Some version of that. But do you see how different that is from I have to? And the same thing was like cooking dinner for your kids, right? It's like, “I have to cook dinner for them.” No, actually, you don't. So I just laugh a little with my clients because, well, here's the thing, when you say “I have to,” this is for anything, it's just so heavy. It feels so heavy. It feels like we're out of control, that we don't have a choice in the matter. So just changing a few words makes all the difference.
Okay, so that's one example. And so here's another example, so there's someone that I know who has a stalker. And as you can imagine, every time that word stalker comes up, it like creates this emotional charge. That's awful, as you can imagine. And so I suggested, why don't you not use that word? Why don't you just make up a word instead?
And so this person did. And it's not that this person is never going to have a negative feeling when thinking about this person. Let's just call this person Penny. But when that word is different and not stalker, it lowers emotions. And when your emotions are low, your intelligence is higher. I say this a lot. when emotions are high, intelligence is low. it neutralizes things. It kind of separates you from the trauma so you can think a bit more clearly, basically.
So what's something that you tell yourself a lot that makes you feel awful, that makes you feel like you're out of control? And what would it be like if you changed that word? If you are someone who says I am stressed or I am overwhelmed a lot, I want you to stop saying. Literally, stop saying it out loud or in your head, stop saying it to your friends. I know it's like something that friends commiserate on, especially if you're all working hard as physicians or whatever you do.
Replace that word with something else. It could be something stupid and funny. I promise it'll change the way you're experiencing things because that word overwhelmed, and Brene talks about this in her book, literally makes you feel worse about feeling overwhelmed. I know it's kind of meta, but that's true.
So I just want you to try that on. The next time you notice yourself saying something that doesn't feel good, that feels heavy, that feels maybe even overwhelming, but don't say that word. Use a different word or phrase. Okay, that's what I have for you guys, I will talk to you next week.
Hey, if you're ready to create wealth, I want to invite you to join my program, Money For Women Physicians. You'll join a community of like-minded women physicians, who are committed to creating wealth, just head over to wealthymommd.com/money to learn more.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
107: Money Doesn’t Make You Happy
Today’s episode is going to be a little different. I have one big announcement, so keep listening for that. But first, I want to take a little time to discuss my journey with all of you. You’ll know that my name is Bonnie, I’m a dermatologist, a mother, and a coach. But in this episode, I’m formally reintroducing myself because things are changing over here.
As I look back on the last few years, after residency, my first attending job, and having my son Jack, I was working in private practice, just starting to work on growing my wealth and financial independence, on this journey, I always wanted more. I thought that if I had more money, I’d be happier. But I’ve learned that achieving external goals doesn’t lead to permanent satisfaction.
Tune in this week to discover why being financially independent or wealthy isn’t the secret to happiness. I’ve learned that enjoying life right now is a skill, and I’m sharing how my coaching has evolved and is still evolving to include more incredible and insightful topics besides money.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- How it’s normal, especially as high-achievers, to believe we will be happier when we bring new things into our lives, whether it’s money, a job, a house, or anything like that.
- Why nothing outside of us, like having more money, can ever do the job of making us happy in the long term.
- The importance of being present to experience the awesome things your life has to offer.
- Why your brain doesn’t like change.
- How things have changed and are still changing over here at Wealthy Mom MD.
- Why the key to financial wealth is to first increase your capacity for emotional wealth.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Resoré
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hello everyone, welcome to episode 107. So I have a bit of a special episode for you, I probably say that most episodes. But this one is going to be a little different because I have a little bit of an announcement. But before I get to that I thought I would just talk a little bit about my journey. And I think I did do an episode where I talk about my entrepreneurship journey overall, and so there will be some overlap. But this journey, or this version is a little different.
So basically, I want to reintroduce myself. So obviously, most of you know who I am, meaning my name is Bonnie and I am dermatologist. I am a mom, partner, a sister, a daughter, and I’m a coach and that’s what I do full time right now. And I want to introduce myself, and it’ll be obvious at the end, because things are changing.
And basically the way I think about the last few years is after residency and when I started my first job as an attending, and then after I had Jack I moved to Philadelphia for a minute. We were there for a year and a half. Also, side note, I just realized, or rather somebody asked me the other day in my life and you guys might not know that I actually had two postpartum hemorrhages. Not one, but two.
And I did a blog post on it when I blogged, but I’ve never talked about it on the podcast. And there’s really no reason why, at least in my opinion, but a friend of mine mentioned that it might be good to talk about at some point. So maybe that will be a separate podcast, but just an FYI, that happened and obviously I’m okay. But it did require five units of blood and a DNC.
I just remember when I moved the Philly and I was working in private practice and I was learning all the things money, I discovered the whole compound interest thing, the whole, you know, what’s my FI number and I think people still talk about that. Meaning your financial independence number which is basically the amount of money you need in order to retire assuming it’s the stock market. Because, basically, for every million dollars you have in retirement invested in the stock market, that will pay you around $40,000 a year. It’s called the 4% rule.
Now, I’ve been reading some articles saying that it’s probably more like 5% but let’s just stick with 4% because that’s the most common percentage out there. And I just remember running the numbers, thinking about what kind of income I wanted to live on, and it didn’t work, basically. The numbers didn’t work because I wanted a bigger life.
And so I remember just thinking a lot about money, kind of pining for it so to speak. And I know that might sound weird since I was a dermatologist. I was not making dermatology money, I’ll just tell you that, compared to like what a lot of my friends make. So yeah, so I’ll leave it at that.
And I really thought, and I know many of you think this too, that once I hit that number or once I had more money, that I would feel better, basically. And on some level, if you’ve been listening to my podcast you know that I talk about how that’s not true, but you kind of think it’s true. And I kind of think it did either, and a part of me still does, I’m just more aware of it when that thought comes into my brain.
So what I’ve learned over the past few years is that changing anything external, so this includes money, this includes maybe living in your dream house, the job, finding your spouse if that’s what you want to do, having children if that’s what you want to do, is going finally make you happy. And I just think that’s normal, first of all.
And I think it specifically affects us high achievers because we’re just used to picking a goal, achieving it, and then we move on to the next because that satisfaction we get is so fleeting. And because it’s so fleeting we pick another goal like, “Oh no, this isn’t it. Maybe it’s the next one.” Of course, each time you reach those goals it feels great.
I recently bought these really expensive washcloths, when I say expensive they were $50 for two. And you guys might be thinking, “Why would she spend money on that?” I’ll just give you a side note, they’re called Resore, R-E-S-O-R-E. So if you are someone who likes to use washcloths, whether it’s in the shower or for your face, I use them for my face, I like to use a wet washcloth to kind of wipe of the cleanser I use, which isn’t a foaming cleanser. And then I use another washcloth to kind of pat my skin dry. I’m a dermatologist so I take care of my skin.
And basically, I don’t even know where I found this, but I think I was Googling like best washcloths because the ones I had were kind of old and ratty and weren’t particularly soft. And basically, you know those review sites, they say like this is best one, the luxury one, the budget one? And so basically this was like the best one if you’re willing to pay for it. And of course that piqued my interest.
And long story short, they are super soft, luxurious feeling, and they have some like anti germ thing weaved in. Like silver or something else, you don’t see it, obviously. And so I guess they’re saying you don’t have to wash them as often. Anyway, so that’s why I spent $50 dollars on two washcloths.
The point of the story was to tell you that when I got those washcloths I was really happy, but it didn’t last longer than that day. Although, I just got them, so I really do enjoy them every time I wash my face.
Anyway, that was just a quick little story but I think you get the point, we just think like, “Oh, if I could have that, if I could achieve that, if I could take that kind of vacation, then I’ll be happy.” And so that's kind of how I started my money journey, but this isn't just another podcast talking about how money can't buy happiness. I think we all know that, like I said. But I think some of us think, “Yeah, but...”
And what I want to say is that over time after really getting coached and really recognizing and addressing beliefs, but not just beliefs that I only had. But really understanding how my brain works, how the human brain works in general and how it's really not designed to be happy. It's really not designed to enjoy and appreciate life. It is designed to enjoy and get pleasure, like that's why dopamine exists. But we're not getting a constant trickle of dopamine, right?
So I really had to work on this, and it's not like I'm finished. Because I have a lot of clients, and even my coaching friends, I think some of us really think there's going to be some moment where we hit like, I don't know, mind or brain nirvana where everything will just be awesome, and roses and unicorns, and only positive thoughts. And news flash, that's just never going to happen.
But the difference now is that I'm not trying to be happy all the time. I am really working on appreciating my life, enjoying the little things, being present. Because I think when we're so focused on the goal, we're just not present for all the amazingness we have in our life. And so that's what I really learned over the last few years, and honestly, the last few months.
I may have mentioned that I just recently completed master coach certification with the Life Coach School where I certified. And we each pick a project and that was my project, to actually really enjoy and appreciate what I have. But really to consider and to really, as they say, stop and smell the roses and to really notice how awesome my life really is, and really being grateful for it. Because the way our brains work is it's never going to do that automatically.
And so if you're listening to this and this resonates with you, or maybe you think you're the only one who feels this way. And so I just want to say it's normal. In fact, it just means your brain is working perfectly the way it should be because our brains just aren't designed to be happy. Remember, it's number one job is survival.
And so think about it, if it's number one job is to make sure you don't die, which I know sounds dramatic, but that's literally true because if it wasn't then the human species wouldn't procreate and survive, right? You know, if it saw like a lion that want to eat it, they'd be like, “Oh well, whatever, I guess I'll just die now.”
Anyway, so because it's so preoccupied with surviving, it has to constantly look at what can go wrong. Like it's constantly scanning the environment and your choices and decisions about what can go wrong. Meaning it doesn't like to take risk.
And this applies not just to money, but to everything, right? Because if you make a change in your life, any change, there's risk. Meaning, it's not guaranteed that it's going to work. And it's always going to be focused on what's missing, what you don't have. And it's always going to worry about what other people think about you.
So I say all that to sort of illustrate and say again, because this is kind of a theme of my podcast in general, but it always bears repeating because even though you may have heard me say, or maybe you've heard it somewhere else, or read it, ultimately repetition is the mother of skill and it just always makes sense. I just think it's always great to hear the same things over and over again.
So that's kind of what I wanted to say about sort of where I am with my life. And that is really the result of the work I've done and by working with coaches. So the reason why I want to tell you guys all this is because, as many of you know, well, I'm the money person. And if you've been following me since the beginning, and when I say beginning, from the Facebook group that was on Money For Women Physicians. Not the group that I run now, but sort of the original community group.
I really started with giving financial information and advice, not official advice, obviously. And just helping people understand things like what's a 401K? How much money can you do? How should you invest it? Like that kind of stuff. I started doing that, from, really, a desire to educate myself so that I could learn how to do that. And then I was sharing my knowledge.
And I have a program, Money For Women Physicians, and I married the mindset part with the strategy part. But what I've really learned over time is I do focus more on coaching in general, but what I realized was that when I'm focused on educating women on money, like really focusing on that stuff, I basically was, or am, helping women kind of down the same path I started on. Meaning they wanted to know how to become financially free.
Now, I'm not saying that was wrong or wasn't useful, but I've just noticed in so many of my clients that they think they need to be financially free to finally be happy, to finally be able to work less, et cetera. And, basically, they are really putting off their ability to be happy and enjoy life now because they really thought it hinged on them being able to replace their clinical income or to make more money in general.
And so that really leads to the “announcement” I mentioned earlier, which is that I am changing the way I coach. And maybe it's not really a change, I really think of it as more of an evolution on what I coach on. But basically, I am focusing a lot less on coaching around money. It'll always include money because all of us just have usually such shitty beliefs around money and our ability to make more.
And I am really going to focus, going forward, on really being a general life coach. If I had to really be specific on what I want to do, it's to really be a general life coach. And really focus on helping you create emotional wealth, because honestly, that's what's required to have more money and to have really all the things you want in life, money or not.
Whether it's to find that relationship, whether it's to just enjoy yourself, to have more friends, to maybe spend or really enjoy being a parent, or to lose weight. And the thing is, they all stem from a set of inner beliefs, inside beliefs. Basically inside your emotions, what's going on in your brain. It's the same root cause, and that's really what I want to focus on.
So that said, I don't have a plan yet on what that's going to look like or what that’s going to change exactly with what I do know. I privately coach a really small number of mostly women, although I haven't had a male client but I would coach a guy. And I have a program, Money For Women Physicians, so no changes or decisions yet, I just kind of wanted to put that out there that changes are coming. I don't think I'll change the name of the podcast.
But one thing I can say, not officially anyway because a contract isn't signed, but if you remember I was going to, actually I sold a retreat for November 2020, people bought it, it was almost half full. It was going to be a retreat in Hawaii at the Four Seasons Oahu, which is the same island as Honolulu. And then because of Covid I had to cancel it. But I've always wanted to do retreat. And I kind of had a specific vision of what I wanted that to look like.
So what I mean by that is I love retreats. Like I love going to retreats. I love the idea of retreating, even if it's like solo, I've done that for sure. And here's the thing, retreats are amazing, especially if it's something specific to working on you, like a coaching retreat. But the problem that I have seen with them, or just have seen in general, is that you go to this amazing thing, you take time out for yourself because a lot of you are not good at that. And you learned all this stuff, you leave inspired and motivated, but then you go back to your life.
And the thing with this type of work is it's not a one and done thing. You can't do like a one week boot camp and then stop. I mean, you can but then like there's no lasting effects. And then you wonder why your body hasn't really changed or whatever. And so this is really the same thing with retreats, and I love retreats.
And so basically my vision, my idea, it's not really an idea because it's happening, is a retreat followed by four months of coaching in a really intimate group of 10 people. And I'm also going to make it available to my one on one clients if they want to come to the retreat as well.
Nothing is signed, that's why I can't announce dates or anything. But we are very close to that, it's most likely going to start in mid-October. So if this is something you are super interested in, keep those dates in mind, mid-October. And once it's finalized, I will tell you more about it.
But basically, it's going to be an amazing, luxurious retreat, with four months of group coaching. And this is going to be so amazing for a number of reasons. First, the retreat is going to be freaking amazing because it's going to be luxurious. And when I say luxurious, I don't even mean just in terms of the experience. You know, it's going to be a nice place, a nice setting, it's going to have all of that. But it's going to be luxurious in terms of a luxurious experience.
And what I mean by that is you're going to feel so taken care of because the price of it is going to include everything but your flight to get there. And I just felt really strongly about that because I just want you to say yes, figure out payment, and then your only job is to show up to the retreat. You don't have to worry about what you're going to eat, et cetera. I really just wanted to take care of everything so that you didn't have to spend any brain time thinking or planning.
So the only thing you have to think and plan about is getting your ass there by booking a flight. So that's kind of what I mean by the luxurious experience. And then you're going to have four months with me to coach on all the things that we discuss at the retreat. And so this retreat will not focus on money.
As I've been talking about it's really going to focus on you. On you really understanding in your bones that you are 100% worthy to have that exquisite, intimate relationship with yourself. To really know that you can trust yourself and have your own back no matter what. And to really learn, and appreciate, and enjoy the amazing life you already have because that is actually the fuel required to create everything you want, including money.
So I will always be the money person, I'm just sort of expanding on it, and I think getting to the root cause of it. So I like to think of it as this retreat, program, whatever you want to call it is really going to help you create wealth from the inside out because it's really the inside that we need to, I don't want to say fix, but it's the inside we need to massage in order to get the outside to match. Because most of you are already super successful. Most of you are already making a lot of money, but you don't feel it.
And so here's what I want to leave with you guys. I will tell you more, I promise, once we have the details and all that stuff. But this is something, I don't even remember where I read this and so I'm sorry that I can't attribute the quote. But it goes something like this, we aren't responsible for the beliefs we were told to believe or the beliefs that we're currently thinking that came from the past. But we are responsible for believing new things. That's on us. That's on you.
So that's I want to leave you with and thank you so much for being here. Thank you for being a listener. I've heard from a few of you how much you enjoy this podcast, and so I just appreciate it so much. I will talk to you guys next week.
Hey, if you enjoyed this episode and don’t want to miss out on new episodes please hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. See you next week.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
106: Pearls of Wisdom from The Life Coach School Mastermind
I just got back a few days ago from Austin, Texas for the annual Life Coach School Mastermind. After a couple of years' break due to the pandemic, it was amazing to be back in the presence of brilliant coaches, and this week, I’m sharing some pearls of wisdom that I took away from this conference.
This year’s theme was the A-line, which stands for Action in the Self Coaching Model. If you’re like most of my listeners, you love passive action, which often looks like studying and researching, and it may seem like a productive way to spend your time, but it’s not. The most successful people are great at making decisions and taking massive action, and on this episode, I’m showing you what that looks like.
Listen in this week as I share some of the gems I discovered at the Life Coach School Mastermind. You’ll learn the difference between passive action and massive action, why we have to celebrate making money, and how to take action towards the results you want, even if you’re feeling resistant to it.
I am currently accepting applications for one-on-one private coaching. If you’re ready to finally get started on the life you’re dreaming of, click here to apply and schedule a consultation call with me.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- The distinction between passive action and massive action.
- What it means to hustle towards a result you want.
- My favorite fuel for taking action.
- Why you don’t have to want to do something to take action on it.
- An analogy to help you step out of compare and despair and focus on your own journey.
- How the arrival fallacy keeps you stuck.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- The Life Coach School
- Miraval Resort & Spa
- 104: Women of Color: Judgment, Shame, and Wanting More with Brig Johnson
- 105: Your Past, Present, and Future Self
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Welcome to episode 106. So I just got back a few days ago from, was it 5 or 6 days in Austin, Texas. I was there for the annual meeting for life coaches certified by The Life Coach School, which is where I certified, obviously. And then, right after, I spent three nights at Miraval Austin. I think it’s Miraval, or is it Miraval?
Anyway, whichever it is in case you don’t know, it is an all-inclusive spa resort. They have three locations, Arizona in Tucson, Austin, Texas, and the Berkshires in Massachusetts. Now, I have been to the one in the northeast and this was my first visit to the one in Austin. And I love spas and I love it when they’re all inclusive, it just makes things so much easier. And Miraval is part of the Hyatt collection and I am a Hyatt girl. In fact, it is my goal this year to hit their top tier known as globalist.
I may have said this before, but the reason why I’m trying to get it is because well, you get lots of perks. You get sweet upgrades, you get access to their club which has lots of food, and I want to get it for 2023. And one of my goals is to take my family to Korea and to fly at least in business class. And they have Hyatts in all the major cities that I want to visit; Seol, Pusan, and Jeju Island. So that is something I am thinking for early fall in 2023.
Anywho, I am here to talk about pearls, things I’ve learned at the annual conference, it’s known as mastermind. Now, we haven’t met as a group in person since 2019 due to Covid. And they did not want to do something virtually, they wanted to wait until we could do it in person. Now, mastermind is a day and a half, sometimes two whole days. And basically there are talks by coaches, duh.
And this year the theme was A line. Now, in case you’re like, what does that mean? A line is one of the lines of the self-coaching model which is the major tool that we are trained with as a coach. And A line stands for action. So it was all about the action line, which seems ironic because most of us coaches help our clients focus on the T line, or the thoughts.
Now, just to give you some context in case you’re not familiar with the self-coaching model, many of us think it’s what we do, our actions, that will create things for us or that will move us forward. Now, that is partially true. Notice I said partially because it’s not 100% true because it depends what’s fueling those actions. And our actions are fueled by what we think and what we feel. And so you have to make sure they’re aligned.
So here are the pearls from that conference. I don’t really have a plan, don’t really have things in order. I am literally going to go through my notes on this podcast with you and sort of pick out the things I wrote down, the things that really spoke to me and why. All right, let’s go. In fact, let’s go is the phrase that Brooke Castillo, the founder of The Life Coach School, loves to say. she’s all about taking action and basically, let’s go.
So, one of the first things she said is that progress comes from creating results. And she talked about the distinction between passive action versus massive action. Now, if you’re like my typical listener, you love passive action. Passive action looks like this, studying all the things, learning everything. And see, it feels productive, it feels like you’re doing something, but it’s not.
I’m not saying it’s not useful, you’ve got to do something, that is the massive action. You’ve got to take massive action. And I will say, the most successful people that I know, and I don’t just mean entrepreneurs, they are great at taking action. They are great at making decisions and taking action and not having too much time in between making the decision and doing something about it. Because you have to do things to create results. I mean that makes sense, right?
Now, what most of us try to do is hustle our way to results. Here’s what I mean, hustling is when you’re trying to outrun yourself. You’re like, “Well, I don’t really believe in this,” or you’re having just low belief in yourself and so you keep yourself busy doing, doing, doing. Now, you’re probably like, “Wait, didn’t you just say we have to do things to have progress to create results?” Yes, but only if it’s fueled by the right beliefs.
She also talked a lot about fear and how it’s totally normal to have it. Now, this is something I tell my clients all the time. Most of us think when we are scared or when we have fear that it’s a signal or it means that we shouldn’t do it. Isn’t it interesting that’s what we make it mean? I mean it’ kind of like makes sense, right? But it doesn’t unless you’re in true physical danger it does not.
Now here’s the thing, our brain can’t really distinguish between the different fears. Of course you know that you’re not really in physical danger, but your brain kind of thinks so. And so I love the acronym for fear, false evidence appearing real, because that’s what it is, right? Fear is literally false evidence, false fear appearing real.
She also talked a lot about discipline, doing the stuff you don’t want to do. And she actually said, and this kind of blew my mind, that she loves doing shit she doesn’t want to do. To me that was like, what? Because I think so many of us don’t do things because we don’t want to do it.
Now, I’ve talked about this before and I tell my clients all the time, I think a lot of us are like waiting to be interested to do something. Like working out, you might be like, “Well, I don’t really want to work out.” So what? Is that a valid reason?
I hear my clients say,” Well, I don’t really want to budget,” or “I’m not interested in investing.” Yeah, and? That’s what I ask and they’re so confused when I do that because I think we’ve, I don’t know, somehow believed that it’s required in order to do something. And it’s totally not. And this is something I’ve heard before, but every time I hear it it just blows my mind because it reminds me, oh yeah, I don’t have to want to do it to do it.
Then she talked about what is the fuel for your action? Now, I said this before, it matters 100% what’s fueling those actions. What are the thoughts and feelings? And she gave sort of her fuel and I want to share some of my fuel for the actions that I love taking that creates the results that I love. And so for me it’s committed, compelled, determined, courage, and grit.
Now, I think most of those are kind of obvious what they feel like, and I just want to take a moment to talk about feeling committed. I actually don’t think it necessarily feels that good in my body. To me, committed means doing it no matter what, including when I don’t want to. And so that’s why it doesn’t always feel good to be committed, because I commit to things where I don’t necessarily love all the parts of it.
Like recently I committed to losing 15 pounds by my birthday, which is the end of June. And I’m just remember that I talked about this in the last podcast, or a few podcasts ago, about your future self. But I’m committed to that future version of myself more than my immediate self-gratification or desire to things or not do things. And then she sort of ended with what if you gave up all of your excuses and just make a freaking decision?
Okay, the next talk was by Brig Johnson, and I actually had her on the podcast a few episodes ago. And she gave the most amazing analogy that I’ve ever heard and I have to share it with you. So, she was talking to coaches and most of us are building business and want to make money and be successful.
So she was talking about that but this can apply to anything you’re going for. Maybe it’s making money, maybe it’s some other goal that you have. And how most of us tend to fall into a little bit of compare and despair wondering why that person seemed to have it so much easier, why do you have it so hard, all those things.
So here’s the story she gave, she basically said we’re all trying to go to the grocery store and some of us have stop signs and red lights, some of us have detours. And then she actually asked us, before she gave this story, like do you get mad when you have to stop at a stop sign on the way to the grocery store? Probably not, unless you have road rage or that’s more like a traffic light.
And she gave this story about her dad, I guess they lived in New York City, so if you live in New York City or have been there or live there I should say, you’re going to identify with this story. There’s a saying or there’s a thing where if you go at the right speed you will catch all the green lights because who wants to stop at a red light?
But she gave that story to show us how when it comes to whatever journey we’re on, whether it’s money, whether it’s entrepreneurship, when you do hit a stop sign or a detour we get so upset, right? And so what she said about that journey is you’re going to the grocery store, there might be some stop signs, there might be some traffic lights, some detours, and that’s okay because you’re going to get to the grocery store. We’re all going to get to the grocery store. And some people just live closer to the grocery store.
I loved this story. Loved it, loved it, loved it. Just loved that analogy because I definitely see people who have been more successful, have made more money, and maybe in a shorter amount of time. It’s so easy to be like, why? It’s not fair, et cetera. And they just live closer to the grocery store. And I just love that analogy, it just gives me so much peace and also it helps me focus on my own journey. And it reminds me that we’re all going to get to the grocery store, all of us. What would it be like if you believed that?
And the last thing that she said that like, was amazing to me is you know how sometimes, not sometimes, I think all the time we'll hear certain things over and over again, or maybe there's a lot of time in between. And then someone says it in a way that clicks. Or maybe you just needed to hear it that many times for it to really sink in and make sense. So that's what this moment was like for me.
She basically said, we could be our own dopamine person. She said dopa-man, but I think I like more like a dopamine dispenser for ourselves. And what she meant by that is, basically, did you know that in order to succeed you have to love succeeding? You have to love every minute of it. And analogy that I like to give to my clients and also for myself, because it's not always the case for me, it's like you have to love every dollar that comes in, every money that you make.
And so if you're not someone who's in business, maybe this applies to you investing in real estate, or any sort of thing you're doing to create another stream of income. You have to love every dollar that comes in versus thinking, “Oh, this isn't enough. Oh my God, it's only a few hundred dollars a month.” Because when you're investing in real estate, when you first start out unless you buy a huge multifamily sort of thing or property, you're probably not going to make a ton of money initially.
So it's so easy to go to this isn't enough. But here's the thing, when you keep telling money it's not enough, it doesn't attract more money. But if you love, and cherish, and appreciate every dollar that comes in, that's giving yourself dopamine. And guess what? Your brain wants more dopamine. And so you're going to want to keep doing the thing that's making you money, or whatever it is that you're trying to do.
And I've heard this before, that you have to appreciate every little success, every little bit because otherwise you're not going to love it when you get there. I mean, how many of you think, this is the arrival fallacy, that once you get there, once you have a million dollars, 5 million, whatever it is, then you're going to love the money? Well news flash, you're not going to love it when you're there if you don't love it now.
The next pearl I want to share was from another coach and she basically was talking about imposter syndrome. Now, I know you're probably all familiar about it but it's always a good message to hear in how we persistently discount ourselves. You know, if someone says, “Oh, that's a really nice dress.” It's so easy for us to be like, “Oh, I got it on sale,” or et cetera. Or you could just say, “Thank you so much. I love it too.”
And it's not natural for us to do because of the way we're socialized. Most of us, whenever something great happens we'll say, “Oh, it's a fluke, I got lucky.” Stop saying those things. You did not get lucky. It was not a fluke. You created that.
Okay, then there was a talk about your image and sort of like the brand that you're living into. This actually goes really well with my last podcast about your future self. And I'm actually getting really excited because this is something I'm definitely going to talk to the women inside my program right now, is I really want you to think about that future version that has everything that you want.
Like she already has that in her life, because she does. And for my clients, we're generally talking about money. So your future self that has all the money that she ever wanted. Who does that person look like? Obviously it’s you, but how does she dress? How does she carry herself? And I just loved thinking about that because I actually think I do that right now.
Like I dress like that future version of me that has everything. Now, my style will evolve over time, I'm sure of it. But I love the way I dress, I love the branding of Wealthy Mom MD, I feel like I am living into that future and showing other people that it's available to them. So I just really loved that.
She talked about having a style statement. It could be three words, and she gave some examples of people. And I don't know what mine are at this moment, but one of them is definitely fancy. I'm still playing with what the other words are. But the first thing that came to me, yes, fancy.
And then she talked about three audacious statements. And she shared what Brooke Castillo’s are. And they're meant to be a little, I don't want to say jarring, but they're meant to be audacious. So hers are I'm rich, I love money, and The Life Coach School is the best Life Coach School in the world. And those are audacious statements. So when she says I love money and I'm rich, definitely turns a lot of heads and turns people off. But it's not about pleasing everyone, it's about being audacious.
Now, I'm still working on mine. But then what I realized when I heard that is I am scared to put those audacious statements out there in the world. And I've known that I've been sort of scared to really be who I am. But this talk really showed me how scared I am and how there's lots of things that I haven't actually shared with you guys. And I don't mean like things about my life. But I definitely noticed there is something in the way of me really being me.
And that idea of audacious statements got me because it's kind of in some way, I don't want to say hypocritical, but as a money coach, yeah, I think I am afraid to say how much I love having money and how much I love luxury things and places. I don't think I have such a problem with that part because I do post on my stories and I have pictures of me in really nice places, staying at the Four Seasons, wearing nice clothes. But I don't think I've gone so far as to say I really love doing this stuff and I don't have a problem with it.
So one of the things I love about The Life Coach School is, and because Brooke loves money, she loves celebrating money. And I think this probably has to do with what my audacious statements are because one thing that pains me is how we, women and men, we’re like so afraid to celebrate money, right?
I've talked in the past how it's okay for us to say I'm debt free, people love saying that. But if someone said something like, I just made a million dollars, or my net worth is now $10 million. Most people would not be happy for them. I would be happy for them. That's what I love about the entrepreneurship world, we love celebrating money. Now sometimes we get into compare and despair, but we love celebrating it.
And so Brooke is really good at doing that and so she celebrates her coaches who are making money. So she has an award for making over 100K, and then she has awards for making over seven figures, and there are currently two eight figure coaches. So this was my second year receiving the 100K award.
And when the folks making seven figures, called the two comma club, they all came on stage and it's crazy because just a few years ago there was really only a handful and I think there were like a little over 20 people on the stage including two physicians, by the way, from traditionally underpaid specialties. Yes, I'm talking to you.
That's why it pains me and hurts my brain literally and my heart when I hear traditionally low paying specialties literally say to me that they cannot make more money. Okay, maybe you can't make more money in what you're currently doing now, probably because you're not a business owner. But I just give these examples to show you that it's possible for you.
And so they actually shared some of their beliefs that created their million dollar year, or more. So I'm going to share some of the ones that I wrote down that really resonated with me. And here's the thing, there's no belief or thought police, you can steal someone else's belief that resonates with you.
So the first one is I am committed no matter what. I'm going to decide to like myself anyway. Bring it, I was made for this. It's safe to be the most successful version of myself. I'm already here, trust the process. If they can do it, I can do it.
And here's the last one and one of my favorites, my dream matters. And so that's how I want to end today's podcast. Your dream matters. If you have that tugging, that voice inside of you, if you know that you're meant for something more, listen to it. Your dream matters.
The last thing I want to say is that I am currently taking applications to do one on one private coaching with me. I haven't done this in a while and my coaching is not limited to women or physicians. In fact, this isn't money coaching like I've done in the past. This is coaching on your brain to remove all of the self-imposed limitations to make your dream matter and bring it to fruition.
I started working with a coach in 2018, that's four years ago, literally. And there is no way I could have imagined that I would have the life I have now. That is the truth. And I was starting well on my way to that just a year in, actually less than a year in of coaching. And so I know it's possible. Literally in a few short years or even less, you have no idea where you could be.
So we will link in the show notes how to apply and schedule a consultation call with me. I am taking on a limited number of one on one clients. I am so excited to work with you. Go to my website, wealthymommd.com and then click on work with me and you'll be taken to the page to apply and schedule a call with me. Can't wait to meet and chat with you, and to remind you that your dream matters. All right, have a great rest of your week.
Hey, if you're ready to create wealth, I want to invite you to join my program, Money For Women Physicians. You'll join a community of like-minded women physicians who are committed to creating wealth. Just head over to wealthymommd.com/money to learn more.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
105: Your Past, Present, and Future Self
There’s one important concept I use in my coaching work that I realized I haven’t talked about on the podcast. Now, it might sound a little out there at first, but I invite you to stay with me here because so much goodness and clarity have come out of this idea.
There are three versions of you: your past self, current self, and future self. When you’re thinking about your past self, like who you were last year, or even when you were a kid, it’s easy to be mean to yourself if you regret past decisions. However, when you can understand and compare your past self to your present and future self, so much about how you operate becomes clearer.
Tune in this week to stop spinning in regret or beating yourself up because of past decisions. I’m sharing how to stop arguing with your past self, and how to get clear on your present and future selves, so you can make decisions now that you don’t look back on negatively in the future.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- What my clients typically beat themselves up over in regard to their past.
- Why everything you have done in the past makes perfect sense based on what you were thinking and believing at the time.
- How to develop the kind of self-relationship that leads to less regret, no matter the circumstances.
- Why shaming yourself never results in positive behavior change.
- How to set goals as your future self while appreciating your past and present self.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Brené Brown
- Ep #93: Money & Shame
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey everyone, welcome to episode 105. So, I didn't really create an outline for today's topic so it might be a little disorganized. It might even end up being a bit of a rant, so just go with it. Okay, so I want to talk about a concept that I realized that I actually haven't talked about on the podcast. I was coaching women in my program, Money For Women Physicians, yesterday and so much rich stuff, topics came up. And then I realized I need to teach you guys this as well.
So it is the concept of three versions of you. And I like to refer to them as past self, current self, and future self. And I usually insert my name, so past Bonnie, sometimes I'll even give her a label like 2021 Bonnie. I don't really think so much about my current self, but my current self was once my future self, right? And then my future self, sometimes I'll just say future Bonnie, but sometimes I'll give her a label like $10 million CEO Bonnie.
So basically, what I'm saying is I really want you guys to consider this because I think it's so helpful. It's helpful to help you relate and think about your past and your future. So let me talk about that a bit. So when you're thinking about your past self, your 2021 version of you, so let's start with that but it could apply to any year or any version.
So you could think about using yourself as a kid, a teenager, that sort of thing. The way you were in college. If you are divorced, you could even think about that version of you when you're married, et cetera. So I find this really helpful for a few reasons.
And many of you are familiar with the phrase, you made past decisions based on the information that you have. And I've heard this a lot in terms of basically its advice given to people when they “regret” their past decisions. They're making themselves wrong for past decisions, which basically means beating yourself up.
And so that's actually why I want to speak about this concept when it relates to the past version of you. Meaning, whatever decisions, whatever you did in the past makes sense based on what you were thinking and what you believed at the time. Now, I'm actually talking about this concept to set you guys up for a future episode I'm going to do to discuss decisions that I made in 2021 that for a long time I had so much shame around.
It's one of the reasons why I recorded that episode on shame and money, I just wasn't quite ready to talk about it. But I am ready and I'm just crafting sort of how I'm going to talk about it and why I'm going to talk about it on the podcast. But until then, understanding this concept will set you up, not just for that podcast, but it's going to help you so much because here is what I see so many of you doing, I just see so much regret, beating yourself up because of past decisions that you made.
So actually, here's a common thing I see with my clients, a lot of them beat themselves up for being in so much debt or actually not really doing anything about their money. And here's what I want to say about that, so if the problem or what you think is a problem is let's say not doing something about money, not looking at your balances, whatever that might look like. I want you to consider that doing that, meaning not doing or not looking into your money makes sense based on what you were thinking and believing at that time.
So think about it, if you were thinking some version of, “Wow, money seems really complicated. I'm worried about what I'm going to find.” So I want you to think about what that might be for you for whatever decision or thing you did that you currently regret. And so it makes sense, right? If you are someone who thinks money is hard, if the thought of looking at your money makes you really anxious, it totally makes sense that you wouldn't do anything about it, that you wouldn't even look at your numbers.
So it makes sense that you've made those decisions at that time. And now that you have, right, because we can't undo the past, this is something I talk about so much with my clients because we argue with our past selves. We argue against the current reality because our prior decisions and behaviors then create what we currently have.
So in the example I just gave, if you didn't invest your money, if you didn't look at your money and do anything about it, then your current money situation is probably the same, depending on what it was back then. So if you just had a bunch of money in savings and didn't invest it, that's what is currently going on.
And it's just not useful to argue with what is currently happening and what decisions you made beforehand. Because here's the thing, and I like to joke with my clients, when you argue with reality you lose 100% of the time. Okay? So I think that concept is pretty easy to understand.
Now, the second part I want to get to is when you are feeling so bad about yourself because of what you did or didn't do in the past. And here's what I want to say about that, this really comes down to your relationship with yourself. Meaning, could you show compassion? Could you understand why you did what you did?
And I think the best way to think about this is thinking about your past self as a child, and maybe your current self as a parent. Meaning in the past, let's think about it as your child, the child asks for permission to do something. The child asked for permission to not do anything about the money, to leave the money in savings. And then the parent is granting that permission, which is you.
But then when the child comes back to you and says, “Okay, I did it.” Then the parent is like grounding that child for doing what he or she got permission for. Does that make sense? I know, it might be a little abstract. But basically it's like you did what you did, and then your current self is like yelling at that version of you that did those things. That is literally what's going on.
And what happens when you're getting yelled at? People also call this your inner critic, you hide in shame, you're so upset with yourself. And we all do this, including me. And what I have found is it seems weirdly useful to be mad at yourself, to beat yourself up. But when you really think about it, and I really want you to listen closely here, it actually does not help you in any way. It is 100% not useful.
This actually would be a good time after the podcast today for you to go back and listen to my episode on money and shame because I talk about this concept there as well. But it's not useful at all. And when I say useful, I mean it doesn't help you create an outcome that you want, versus not useful.
So when you're shaming yourself, it doesn't create any positive changes. Brené Brown actually talks about this a lot because many of you know she is the expert, the researcher on shame. So she has talked so much about it, I love her. And I remember reading, shame does not create any positive behavior.
And you know this is true because when someone has yelled or berated you, I think most of us have had that experience, unfortunately. Did you suddenly turn around to that person and say, “Oh my God, you're so right. Thank you. Thank you so much.” I mean, maybe some of you have, but most of us definitely do not react to that sort of behavior. So why would it work on yourself? Why would shaming your past self be useful? It's totally not.
And so the other thing I want to say about your past self is whatever you are beating yourself up for, and usually it's some version of I shouldn't have done that, I should have known better, one of my favorite, favorite questions, not just for myself, but for my clients is, what if I'm wrong about this? What if that's not actually true? Because all of us know when we look backwards at our lives, we usually understand why things happened. We usually understand the lessons. It creates who we are, right?
And maybe right now you can't see that, because that happens to me a lot too. Like something happens where I just feel terrible. And I'm like, no, I can't see the lesson in this and I'm just spinning in negativity. And it might take some time for me to understand why that happened. But I almost always get to a point where I do understand it.
And so I just really want you to consider that maybe you're wrong about why things happened, about thinking this shouldn't have happened, I shouldn't have done this, I should have known better. Why am I so stupid? Things like that. So what if you're wrong about that? What if you're not stupid? What if you were actually supposed to have those decisions?
I think the best way to think about this, actually, I actually have a real life example. I don't want to give too many details, not that you would know who I'm talking about. But I have a friend who got married to somebody and had to actually move a long ways away from home. She got a new job there and that marriage fell apart. Her husband was not very nice to her basically, that's what I want to say about that.
And I'm sure at the time she was, I don't know for sure, but let's just say that she was really upset with herself. Like, how could I not know? Why am I so stupid? I can't believe I married him. I made such a mistake. And that makes sense that she would think that, right? But a few years later, I don't know exactly how much time, she ended up marrying someone she worked with.
And so it wasn't until that happened, and they have a beautiful marriage, she's since had more kids. Now she can see, oh, that had to happen because otherwise I would have never moved, I would have never met the man I was supposed to meet.
So I really want you to think about whatever in the past, you're beating yourself up for, as it was necessary for that to happen for me to step into my future amazing self. And here's the thing, because I know some of you are like, well, that's just delusional, and that's not true. And that's just being made up. But news flash, the inner critic that's yelling at yourself, that's all made up too. We're just making up stories about everything that's happening in our life. You may as well tell the version of the story that's useful for you.
And what I'm not saying is I don't mean that everything needs to be positive and rainbows and daisies, that's not what I'm saying. But we always have the ability, the power, to tell the story that's going to empower us, that’s going to move you forward. Because otherwise, we're always dragging the past with us. We’re always looking backwards to go forward, which does not make sense at all.
And the reason why we do that is because we're carrying all that baggage with us like, oh, I can't do this because look, look what I did in the past. But it's like, what does that past decision have to do with what you're capable of going forward?
So now I want to transition into the future self. So we talked about the past self and how I want you to think about it and how I think about it. Now, I want you to think about you in the future. Now, this is why I think it's useful to have a label, like I think about $10 million Bonnie, although I don't really know if I have that goal of $10 million dollars. But I picked that number, because that's just in the future somewhere, maybe.
And that version of me thinks and behaves very differently than who I am today. So that's the main distinction I want you to walk away with, is that future self thinks and behaves differently. And she has figured out the things that you might be struggling now. And I just really want you to consider that she, or he if you're a he, that person exists. Because who you are today was your future self in the past, right? It's kind of like weird to think that way. But like, think about it, right?
So when I think about that for myself, there was a point in my life, a painful point, where I was single for such a long time. I'll tell you guys, I may have talked about this before, I don't remember. But I was single for a very long time. I mean, of course I dated, I had boyfriends over the years. But I just had so much shame about being single in my late 30s.
And I remember when I finished residency, I was 38 by the way when I finished residency, so not a young chicken by any means in terms of wanting to have a family, I don't mean that 38 is old, per se. And I just remember really feeling almost a little hopeless that that wasn't going to happen. That what I really wanted, a partner, a family wasn't going to happen.
And so I just remember feeling so sad about that, so devastated about that for such a long time. And now I have those things. So I hope that just makes sense in terms of thinking about your current self was once the future self that you wanted so badly in the past, okay?
And so when I think about my $10 million version of me, and I don't just think about her in terms of how much money she has. I also think about just other things about her. Like when I think about her, I see her as just being so calm and so relaxed. And the reason why she's so calm and so relaxed is because she knows things will work out. She trusts herself and she has her own back.
I think that's really what all of us want. We want to love ourselves. We want to trust that we know what's best for us. And we want to have our own backs. Because we're the only people that can do that for ourselves. Sure, you might have friends, maybe you have a partner that does that for you. But ultimately our work is to do that for ourselves, okay?
And so it's really not until you are complete with your past self, in order to really step forward into the future. Remember, I talked about otherwise, we're just dragging the past with us? And here's how I want you to think about it, and here's actually an exercise that I encourage you all to do.
I really encourage you to write a letter to your past self, the one that's hurting, the one that's so upset with whatever she did. Or it's not even like things she did, but maybe things that are going on at the time, like being in debt for example. Obviously, I'm a money coach so I'm going to give you money examples. What would you tell her?
Think of her as your child. Even if you don't have children I think you can relate that you would never talk to a child the way you talk to yourself. If this was your child, what would you say to them? I really want you to write your past self a letter from your current self. Or even I think what's more fun is from your future self. And usually when I write this letter, and I've done this a few times, I'm so loving to that version of her.
Like I literally say, “I love you so much. I'm so proud of you. I got you. Everything's okay. I'm here, we're fine, I am stronger because of you. I'm here for you. I'm here for you whenever you need me.” When I write this letter, when I think about my past self, I just have so much compassion for her. And think about it, when you're like this, like if you're a parent and you talk to your child or even talking to a friend when they're having such a hard time, just think of how comforting that is.
That's actually what I wanted to say, you're comforting that past version of yourself that's just beating herself up. And when that past version of yourself is comforted, that baggage disappears, right? Then you have the space to look forward.
And here are the questions I want you to ask yourself once you're in that clear space, what is in my power and how do I want to use it? Did you know the future is wide open? You can do anything you want. Your past has literally nothing to do with what you can accomplish going forward.
I say this to my clients all the time because so many of my clients feel behind. I've talked about this before, this concept. They feel so behind, they're so upset with themselves for not starting sooner, whatever version of that you may have. And seriously, I'm like what does that have to do with your future ability to have and make money?
And part of it's because so many of us have been indoctrinated in that it takes time to make money. So if you didn't do it for the last 10 years, like compound interest, then you're behind and there's no way you can catch up. That is simply garbage. Total garbage, okay?
So anyway, I hope this episode was useful. I really want you to think of yourself as different versions of you, the past version of you, the future version of you. The future version of you that is like rooting for you. That has accomplished everything that you could imagine and things you can't even imagine right now. She has your back. She can't wait to meet you. She's dying to meet you. She has so much love and compassion for you. So I just want you to soak that in.
All right, that's all I have for you guys. Talk to you guys next week.
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104: Women of Color: Judgment, Shame, and Wanting More with Brig Johnson
I spoke a few episodes ago in Money and Racism about how money is different for not just women, but Women of Color. Well, in this episode, I have the perfect guest here to talk about exactly this topic. She has faced the kinds of struggles we’re talking about, and she’s made it her life’s work to help others overcome them too.
Brig Johnson is a life and mindset coach for high-achieving Black women. She is intimately familiar with the financial dynamics Black women face, and she does incredible work in empowering her clients to drop their internalized conditioning and create epic lives.
Tune in this week to discover the biggest hurdles Women of Color face when it comes to creating lots of money, and how to begin the work of moving past them. Brig is sharing stories from her own life as well as her clients’ lives about the limiting beliefs and social conditioning that so many Black women have to deal with, and how to see where these might be showing up in your life.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- How Brig helps her clients as a coach for high-achieving Black women.
- The unique challenges Black women face when it comes to money.
- Why it’s so difficult to even gain awareness of the conditioning we receive as Women of Color.
- How thoughts about not belonging play into our beliefs about building wealth.
- Where to look to see how limiting beliefs and uncomfortable thoughts are showing up in how you approach money.
- Brig’s advice for anyone who’s struggling to believe they can have or make the money they want because of what they look like.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Brig Johnson: Website | Instagram | Podcast
- Ep #99: Money and Racism: Changing the System
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey everyone, welcome to episode 104. Or is it one zero four? Anyway, I and super excited for today’s episode. I’m pretty sure I say that for most episodes, but I have a special guest today. And remember back, I think it was episode 99 where I speak a little bit about money and race, and how money is different for not just women, but Women of Color.
And so I had said during that episode that I really wanted to find someone to talk more about this. And so I have Brig Johnson, and she’ll introduce herself when we cut to the interview part. But the reason why I asked her to be on the show is that she is an empowerment coach specifically for high-achieving Black women. And what that means is she is intimately familiar, not only as a Black woman herself, with the struggles that are more pronounced/particular to Black women.
And so I love that she’s doing this work, in fact I’ve met Brig in person and when I did this was last August when I was in Cabo for the mastermind I was in. And she told me that she had worked with someone I knew who is a physician and so I just thought that was pretty cool.
And so we are going to talk about her experiences, what she sees in her clients when it comes to creating lots of money, sort of the barriers and limiting beliefs. So that’s what we’re going to discuss. And as usual, my episodes are short and to the point, and so let’s get started.
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Bonnie: Welcome to the show, Brig.
Brig: Thank you. Thank you, it’s so good to be here.
Bonnie: Yeah, I’m so excited for you to be here and to have this conversation. So first, let’s start with introductions. So why don’t you say a bit about yourself, who you are, what you do, who you coach. Brig is a coach too, in case you guys didn’t get that.
Brig: Love being a coach, yes. I’m Brig Johnson, not short for anything, all those who are like, “What’s Brig stand for?” Nothing, it’s Brig, B-R-I-G. And I’m a coach, life and mindset coach, and I coach high-achieving Black women, that’s my niche. Like all the drama that comes along with it, all the internalized conditioning that we have to unpack, all of it. And I help us create epic shit.
Bonnie: I love it. Yeah, and that’s actually what we’re going to talk about, right? Sort of the conditioning that might be specific, particular to Women of Color, especially Black women. It’s something I think everyone’s becoming more aware of and so I want to educate myself and educate my listeners because I just think it’s important to talk about.
I did an episode not too long ago, so we’ll link that in the show notes, just sort of introducing the topic of how money is different for women, but money is different for Women of Color, especially Black women and Latino women. And Latino women specifically get paid the lowest in terms of the gender pay gap.
So, tell us a bit about how you grew up and looking back what conditioning or limiting beliefs that you had.
Brig: Yeah, but I want to go back because you said something, you was like I’m just understanding the difference in the conditioning, I think I am too. I think we all are, this whole world is. Even though I’m Black, like I lived in it, it’s like me even diving into like, damn, the internalization of it is even blowing my mind. So it’s not just you that’s uncovering, we’re uncovering too as a people. And some of us are more informed than others, but also we’re not a monolithic people either, like anyplace else.
So as I speak, guys, I just want to say I’m not speaking for all Black people, I’m just speaking from my perspective.
Bonnie: Totally.
Brig: So as far as limiting beliefs, I think for me one of the most common ones that I coach my people on, what I’ve seen is just that idea of being too much or being visible, or being seen, or being too smart, or don’t be a know it all, or don’t be a fast tell. If you Black, you know all of these things that have been told to you.
And it’s like the same conditioning as women, but it was I think more of a cultural standard to like dampen, to stay under the radar. Because there was no other safety for us, so we just had to hide. Like just do your job, head down, and hope no one sees you.
Bonnie: Like blend in.
Brig: I think that just got, yeah, I think that just got be in stealth mode, right? Just be real good, but don’t draw attention to yourself because there was no protection for us. So when you’re talking about making money, creating money, getting more positions in your job or whatever, you go against all of that cultural training. Like all of that comes up.
Bonnie: Yeah. I’m curious, when you were growing up did you feel like you had enough role models that look like you?
Brig: I think because I grew up in a predominately Black community, like my teachers were Black, the people, yeah. It was just, I think the disparity was when you watched TV, or when you saw commercials, or when you saw an advertisement, it was all successful was something that looked something other than me. Like beauty was something other than me, wealthy was something other than me, smart was something other than me.
In my lifetime quarterbacks were never considered Black men, like it was a big deal to have a quarterback because Black people don’t think, or they can’t maneuver, or they can’t outthink, or they’re not smart. So it was just that subtle, it wasn’t the overt stuff, it was always the subtleties of life that if you’re not paying attention, you just kind of accept and I call it the soup that we swim in.
Like it’s the soup that we swim in and then we just slowly started like no, that’s so crazy. What do you mean we can’t be quarterbacks? What the hell?
Bonnie: Yeah, that’s such a good point because, like you said, it’s the soup we swim in, like it’s in the air so you can’t avoid it.
Brig: Right.
Bonnie: So I was born in Korea but I moved here when I was two so I basically grew up here. And I like what you said, it’s like we’re not even aware what’s going on. Like yeah, of course growing up everyone was white on TV and commercials.
And so Brig and I did this advanced certification in feminist coaching and one of the things that blew my mind was that who you find attractive is socialized to some degree. And then I was like, no wonder I always liked blond hair, blue eyed men. Like that wasn’t an accident, right? And so that blew my mind when I realized like, oh, maybe that’s where that came from because on TV they’re not all blonde, but they’re usually light haired.
And it’s so different today, right, there’s more diversity on TV. You know, it’s still not where it should be, but it’s definitely better now. But I didn’t grow up with that so to me it’s still, yeah, movie stars are usually white, for example.
Brig: Yeah, it was the standard, right? And if you look at it, like the dating apps will tell you the least desirable of all the cultures and everything is the Black woman, like she’s going to be on there. If you look at the dating sites and everything, they have the data that shows that. Not because we’re not attractive, not because we’re not badasses, but because of that socialization of what beauty is and that plays out, it’s the soup that we swim in.
Bonnie: Yeah, and even as you’re talking about the dating apps, also just biracial couples and it’s not even like what’s accepted, but I think at least my experience is people are surprised when they see, let’s say a Black woman with a white man or the opposite. It seems to be more surprising than Asian and white.
I’ve definitely noticed that just from my experience and also just what other people say, like they’re surprised when they see that. As if it’s not a thing, as if white people can’t find Black people attractive, I think that’s probably where it comes from.
Brig: Right, yeah. For sure.
Bonnie: Anything else about money that you think you had limiting beliefs about growing up? Like they probably weren’t conscious, but did you think maybe that your ability to make money wasn’t the same as someone else? Like that sort of thing.
Brig: I think it wasn’t even my ability to make money, I think it was the safety in making money for me and my clients. It’s like there is a threshold and then we’re at too much and now you’re making too much. And so now it comes with the shame, it comes with like you’re being greedy, you’re being independent, or like your marriageability goes down, like all of those things.
It’s hidden, it’s in the soup, you don’t really see it but it’s there. So it’s like the safety of, there’s a safety threshold of like there’s money and then there’s money. And when you’re doing money, I think that scares. Like I notice a lot of my friends, when they’re dating they don’t even say what they do because they don’t want, and I’m sure most women do that. But it’s like it just feels like it’s more of a target on your back the more money you make, so it’s not safe in a lot of senses.
Bonnie: Yeah, can we talk more about what you mean by safe?
Brig: Yeah, it's just that feeling of, again, going against that grain that I said in there earlier. It’s like don't stand out too much, like fly under the radar. So it's like you're going against cultural norms. Like that sense of belonging, that's what makes us safe more than anything, is that innate sense of belonging.
So the further you get up as far as income, then that tendency is to feel like you belong less because you're not with the general population or whatever. So it just feels less safe.
Bonnie: Yeah, I think a lot of Women of Color already have thoughts they don't belong.
Brig: Right.
Bonnie: And so maybe making more money is like well it's increasing that probability or increasing the likelihood of that.
Brig: Yes.
Bonnie: And the desire to belong is primal, right? It was important for our survival to be in groups so that people could look out for you. And so, yeah, it's really scary to think that you might not belong.
I definitely have thoughts about not belonging, not so much about me as a Korean, but just in general. I just think people don't like me and then because of that or because I'm afraid if people get to know me, then I just kind of hide out.
Brig: Yeah, yeah. But we have to remember like, I'm glad you said that, like our belonging is our sense of safety. That's it, it's primal. And when you really think about it, if it's between I want to be my highest self, and a primal instinct, unless you are intentional about it, the primal one usually wins.
So it's like when women are like they want to do these big badass things, but yet that primal instinct of but I'm not going to belong. And they wonder why what other people think matters so much to them. It's because they're going against that primal instinct. And so that one will win unless we address it.
And that's why I love coaching for that, right? We know our sense of belonging really is how we think about ourselves, and we get to create that. But a lot of people don't know that that's created, we think other people create our belonging. But it doesn't, like we create it ourselves internally.
Bonnie: When I started to learn that, I feel like I'm still not 100% there, Brig. If I'm perfectly honest, yeah, I think my brain thinks, no, no, no, it's whether people like me or not or whether they want to be friends with me or not that creates that. But yeah, I'm starting to see that it's me.
Brig: Yeah, it's totally us. And I think that's what I do to go take on these mammoth projects that we are totally capable of doing. But it comes from us creating that sense of belonging and that sense of safety inside out, not outside in. Because if we're waiting for the world to make us safe, it'll never happen.
Bonnie: Yeah, I'm actually planning on doing an episode on money and safety, so this is a good introduction to that topic.
Brig: Yes.
Bonnie: I'm curious if, since we're talking about the topic of belonging, I've heard sort of anecdotes of this and I'm curious if you've seen this or maybe you see it a lot in your clients.
Now, you said earlier that a lot of your clients are afraid of going against the grain in terms of money. Do you also see that when they do, because I'm sure your clients already are at a certain point that is, I don't want to say more than maybe where they came from. But basically do you find that, I'm trying to see how to describe it, like friction, like their family or their friends they grew up with kind of like don't want to be friends with them anymore because they're moving up?
Brig: No, I don’t think they don't want to be friends with them anymore, I think there's this thing of like you can't relate to my struggle anymore. That's it, it's not that they don't want to be your friend, but like they'll be friends with you but it's like this, somehow because you make more money, you can't relate to me anymore.
And I'm like, which is the complete opposite because anybody who works in higher levels or makes higher money, as far as the belongingness is, if you're a Black woman, you’re one of a very, very few now. So it's like I relate even more, like the higher up you go, the more you relate to the struggle of your blackness, or your otherness, whatever it is. Outside of the normal circles, it just shines even more.
So it's like we actually can relate even more, but so many people are like, “Well, you don't understand.” As if money solves all problems.
Bonnie: I wish that were true.
Brig: I know, it doesn't solve all problems.
Bonnie: It solves some problems, for sure. But not all problems.
Brig: Yes, right.
Bonnie: It doesn’t make you happy, contrary to popular belief.
Brig: None of it.
Bonnie: Anything else about money growing up? Or, I guess, you know, here's the question because it doesn't have to be related to money. Have you ever felt like you were treated differently because of the color of your skin?
Brig: Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, all the time. You have to show up differently, you have to dress differently, you have to talk differently, like all of it. Like you don't have the same margin of errors, all of that.
I didn't say it but before I was a coach I was a nurse anesthetist or a nurse anesthesiologist. So very much in a professional sense, putting epidurals in, putting people to sleep, waking them up. And go to some hospital that people don't know me and the surgeon is like, “Who's anesthesia?” And I'm like literally drugs in hand behind the cape at the anesthesia machine. And I'm like, “Who the fuck you think I am? What do you think I am?” Right? So, yeah, totally treated differently. And, yeah, that's the soup we swim in.
Bonnie: Yeah. Tell me your thoughts, like before you became a coach and started understanding your thoughts create your feelings, how did you handle it then versus now?
Brig: Fortunately, I actually handled it the same way. And so I did it naturally, which was like I didn't know that's what I was doing. But like, yeah, you have your thoughts about me and I'm going to let you have them. And I know I'm good, I know I’m great at what I do, and I'm just going to sit in that and I'm not going to try to prove or anything.
I did see it sometimes, like when I would go to a new place, that's when I saw it the most because my thought was I haven't proved my worth yet, and so I have to prove it and then I can relax. So I saw it more with people who didn't know me. But once people knew me, then I kind of relaxed.
Now I know it was that thought, like, oh, I got to prove it, right? So I see that a lot with my clients too, it’s like they're going to proving energy, especially within circles of people that don't know. Like if I'm going to do a podcast interview or if I'm going to go to this thing and speak, I have all the credentials and I'm chairman of it, but yet I got to prove. And I’m like, “Or you can just show up as yourself.”
So I think I just took it a little bit further with coaching, but yeah.
Bonnie: What sort of thoughts and advice, and you're going to be so good at this since you this is what you do, what thoughts and advice do you have for my listeners who are Black, or of color, or of another group that's not the norm? Obviously, I coach money so my clients struggle with money to varying degrees.
And so I'm sure you've coached on this, and what would you say to someone who's struggling with money and basically they believe they can't make or have the money that they want? And maybe they also believe it has to do with what they look like. So what would you say to that person?
Brig: I'll answer it, but I’m going to answer it in a completely different way because, I think, first before not having or before creating more, I think a strong understanding of like where they are, in shame of where they are. Because for so many money is a shame thing, like I should have more or I don't have enough and there's a shame about it.
And I'm so glad that you're linking to your other podcasts that you talked about, like the red lining and the pay gap. There is a reason why, so we can let go of the shame of not only did I not come from money, but my family didn't come. Like we were given this and so allowing that to not make you shameful for where you are as far as the money is. And because I don't think we can improve until we take away the judgment of where we are right now, that's all I’m trying to say.
Bonnie: Totally.
Brig: It's like so if we can get to a place where we are not judging how much money we have, where we are, how little or bad or whatever we want to say, we managed it. We did the best that we could with the knowledge that you had. If you can just adopt that principle and remove any kind of shame.
Because if you're doing it out of shame, then I think there's this urgency to make up for it because I got to make up for what I didn't do. And all that does is make you make bad decisions, rush decisions that you don't really think of right?
Bonnie: That’s actually what most of my clients deal with, and the thought is I’m behind.
Brig: Right, yeah. So it’s like first step is to get rid of the shame of anything in where we are. And it's like, yeah, of course, our families didn't have money to help us because of redlining and I did make this decision. Okay, fine.
So I think your next question was understanding your ability as a, I think Women of Color, marginalized people, especially women are never taught their authority or their ability to create. We're seen as the doers, but not the creators. And just start to literally see yourself as a creator of value, of knowledge, like a person that can create their life through their thoughts, of course.
But like I am a creator, and with that I think that's how you’ll start with I can make more money. Because as long as we see money as a byproduct of somebody gave me something and it was a fluke, they took pity on me, they gave me this job, or I was a diversity hire. I coach on that a lot, I was a diversity hire, I don't deserve to be here. And I'm like bullshit, right? Because someone else that you're sitting to is a nephew hire or a I work at the country club hire. So what says one is better than the other, right?
So those type of thoughts, it’s like just seeing like they are there because they created it. And if they created this, they can create so much more.
Bonnie: I really love that, I never thought about it like that, doer versus creator.
Brig: I hope that helped.
Bonnie: And I totally see how that plays. And even just with combining that with money, because I think the doing also perpetuates this belief that money comes from time and effort versus something we can create, that doesn’t have to do with that.
Brig: Right.
Bonnie: So I love that so much.
Brig: Yeah, it's like seeing their value to create value. Like I get to create value.
Bonnie: Yeah. So, is there anything else that you want to say that we haven't gotten to?
Brig: Yeah, I think also like, the last thing I want to say is especially as Women of Color, it's okay to want more money.
Bonnie: Yes.
Brig: It's okay to want a fuck ton of money, right? There's nothing bad with wanting more. Even if you have some there's nothing, like I know there's this thing in some of our communities where to want more is being greedy. Or oh my god, when is it going to be enough? It's okay to want more. That's called dopamine and that's a normal thing, right?
Bonnie: No, I love that, yeah.
Brig: Totally normal, give yourself permission to want more and vote for more, and it doesn't mean you’re a bad human.
Bonnie: Yeah, no, that's so important because my audience, they're doctors, right? So they already make well over six figures and so there's a lot of thoughts like, well, I should be grateful for what I have. I already make enough, I shouldn't want more. And this whole idea that if I make more, someone has less. But yeah, the whole like I don’t want to be greedy.
Brig: Yeah, the zero sum, like there's a pile, that’s yours. Go get it. Go get it.
Bonnie: Yeah, that's how I think of it too. Yeah, there’s a pile with your name and it's waiting for you.
Brig: Right, yes, for sure.
Bonnie: Well, thank you so much for this conversation, I know it's going to be so valuable to my listeners. So where can people find you and learn more about you?
Brig: Yeah, I'm Brig Johnson, as I said. So website brigjohnson.com, easy. Instagram. I'm Johnson Brig, and Facebook I’m Brig Johnson. So there it is. I have my own six month coaching program that I just work with the high-achieving Black women, like helping us unprogram, reprogram all of it.
Bonnie: Yeah, that's amazing. We’ll link everything in the show notes so people can easily find you. So, all right, well, thanks again so much. And everyone else, I'll see you next week.
Hey, if you're ready to create wealth, I want to invite you to join my program, Money For Women Physicians. You'll join a community of like-minded women physicians who are committed to creating wealth. Just head over to wealthymommd.com/money to learn more.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
103: Why Money Doesn’t Create Entitlement
I was coaching someone recently who worried they were spoiling their kids. This is a common concern among physicians. The vast majority of us earn multiple six figures, so what can we do to make sure our kids don’t grow up to have a sense of entitlement?
First of all, having a lot of money and giving our children opportunities isn’t what creates entitled and spoiled kids. They’re independent human beings with their own minds, and there are no guarantees either way. However, there are things you can do to just keep an eye on the situation if this is a fear you have.
Tune in this week to discover why it’s not having money that creates entitlement in our children. I’m sharing why we believe having money means our kids will be spoiled, and instead how you can address the thoughts you might be having that could lead to your child having unhealthy opinions about money.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- How I define entitled and spoiled and where the differences are.
- The most common thoughts I see coming up for my clients about having money themselves.
- Why money itself isn’t what changes or corrupts a person’s behavior.
- Where entitlement really comes from.
- How to see the things you can do to give your children greater awareness.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Money for Women Physicians by Bonnie Koo
- The Life Coach School
- Big Little Feelings Parenting Course
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 103. So we just got back from a two week vacation in Hawaii. It was super awesome. And there were some not so awesome parts, which I'll go into in a second. And I brought my parents there for the first week to help out with Jack and also to take them to Hawaii, because why not?
So we had a condo for the first week and then we moved on to the Four Seasons Oahu, which is where Honolulu is. For those of you who have been following me for a while, you may remember that I lived there for three months to do a locums assignment. How fun was that? Although I was working a lot, so I felt like I didn't get to quite enjoy it.
And actually, that's a great segue into not just my topic for today, but also something I want to share with you guys. So as you guys know, I am a certified life coach. And, you know, it's not a regulated industry because, not because but you know how as physicians we're required to do a certain amount of CME. And obviously we know that some people actually do it, and some people don't really do it.
And what I mean by that is not that there's a right way to do CME, but it's easy to kind of like, you know, half-ass it. And as a coach it's not required for me to do continuing coach education, but I do think the best coaches do that. And I do it on a regular basis and I'm actually in the middle of a pretty rigorous additional advanced certification through the school I trained at, which is the Life Coach School. And it's called master coach training, and it is their highest level certification.
Now, the reason why I'm sharing that is not to just brag about how I'm doing this, I am definitely so much better at coaching. And that makes me excited because that means I can help my clients even more. I can get them to where they want to be even faster and I feel really confident about that now.
But what I wanted to share with you specifically about that is besides working on our coaching and getting like excruciatingly detailed feedback on our coaching, we also have to do a project and we get to propose it. And my project was not around coaching or making money in my business. It had to be something that was really challenging for us, that would really make a huge difference in our lives.
And so mine was actually about feeling my feelings more. And I'm just laughing because I'm sure some of you are like, how is that a thing? Or how is that actually helpful? But one of the things that was a part of that project was to really learn how to be in the moment, really learn how to enjoy and appreciate my life and just everything.
And actually one of the parts of the assignment was actually for me to enjoy my vacation in Hawaii. Now, I know some of you listening are like, how is that a hard thing? It’s not that it's really hard for me, I'm just always thinking about the next thing.
And I know that many of my clients, maybe even you, share that. Like we think once we became a doctor we would be happy or, you know, since I coach money, once I have a certain amount of money, then I'll feel secure. And so we overlook what we have now. And we overlook or don't even enjoy and appreciate what we have in front of us.
And so that actually is part of what I wanted to talk about today. So I was recently coaching someone in my program, this is actually a common thing I hear from my clients, you know, because I work with physicians and we all make multiple six figures, or the vast majority of us anyway. A lot of us worry that we're going to spoil our kids or our kids are going to become entitled little brats.
And this is actually something that I've been thinking about for a long time. But when I coached someone recently, I was like, you know, I’ve been meaning to do a podcast on this, and now I'm doing it. So that's what we're going to talk about today, why we think this is the thing.
And basically I'm going to tell you this is not a thing. When I say it's not a thing, I mean that having a lot of money, giving them things or opportunities does not actually create entitled and spoiled kids. I'm going to tell you what does and how to, I don't want to say how to prevent that because one thing I've learned about parenting is we can do our best, you know, I do think it's a great opportunity and responsibility to parent and guide them. And ultimately they are independent human beings with their own minds.
And just because you could be like the best parent, and what I mean by that is, because I don't think that's such a thing. But you can do your best to guide them, you can be teaching them all the things, but that doesn't guarantee they're going to be great kids, right? Because we all know that, especially if you have multiple kids, you know that they're all so different. And you can take two kids growing up in the same household, and they can have very different beliefs about things and about money.
So let's first define, because as you guys know, I love to define things. Let's define entitled and spoiled. So entitled means believing oneself to be inherently deserving of privileges or special treatment. And then spoiled means, and it says of a person, especially a child, harmed in character by being treated too leniently or indulgently. So they kind of go hand in hand, but as you can see, they're a bit different and nuanced.
So the first thing I want to say is, so many of you believe that money changes people. Now, I talk about this in my book, that a lot of us think money is bad. And so having more of it is going to somehow corrupt us. Like that is such a common belief. A lot of us think rich people are greedy, we don't want people to think we're rich.
And so I want to talk about that. And basically, here's the deal, money cannot jump into your body, meaning more money does not suddenly jump into your body and change who you are. That is not a thing. I like to think of money and whether you're good or bad, and first, I don't even like that good and bad because it's kind of like putting people in two buckets.
And what I want to say about that real quick because I have a lot of opinions on this. This is probably a whole other podcast about the concept of all or none thinking is like, why are those the only two options? If you label someone as a good person, that doesn't mean they're good 100% of the time or whatever, how you’re defining that, right?
So I think it's important to understand that we're multifaceted people, there's going to be parts of us that we don't particularly like, we're going to sometimes behave in ways that aren't great. And that doesn't mean that you're a bad person. So I actually love this analogy for parenting, you can be a great parent and yell at your kids, and because you do that does not mean you're a bad parent.
So I think the point I want to make is that it's not so black and white, meaning there's like not someone who's 100% good or 100% bad. But let's just pretend there is because I think it just helps illustrate the point. I think money just amplifies who you are.
So if you are a good-hearted person that loves to help people, that loves to donate, having more money is just going to let you do more of that. And if you are a “bad person,” more money is just going to help you do more of that too.
Remember, these are like two extremes but this is just for illustrative purposes, okay? And so what I'm trying to illustrate with this analogy or this story is that money itself does not change you, it does not corrupt you. So you probably know where I'm going with this, having money, giving things to your kids, that in itself does not make your kids entitled or spoiled.
So this is such an important concept, that in itself does not do that. And if you don't believe me, we all know, at least I think so, people who did grow up wealthy and they are not like this, right? And there are people who grew up with less money and are entitled and spoiled.
In fact, I'm going to share something that I'm not particularly proud of, you know, I grew up, you know, I actually don't even know but I usually say lower middle class, maybe even below that. And I do think I grew up a little entitled. I don't think I grew up spoiled, because to me spoiled means always given things. And obviously because we had less money, that wasn't the case.
But I do think I had this sense of entitlement. And that doesn't make sense, since I didn't grow up with a lot of money. So I just want to illustrate to you that it's not the amount of money, the things you have or don't have that create spoiled or entitled kids. So I really want you to get this concept out of your brain.
So the fact that you are well off, drive nice cars, have a nice home, that in itself does not make your kids who they are. So I want to talk about what I think does. And there's a few things here, and some of it has to do with money but a lot of it doesn't, and it has to do with sort of what I talked about earlier about my project.
So I think one of the reasons why this can happen is that we don't talk about money with our children. And this kind of makes sense that we don't do that because so many of us as adults don't talk about money with each other, our parents didn't talk about it. And so even in my program it's something we have a hard time doing even though we talk about money in my program, but it's not comfortable for most of us.
And if it's not comfortable for you, you probably aren't talking about it with your kids. And so what I mean by that is I don't think talking about money itself is going to help prevent entitlement or spoiled. But it's like teaching them the importance of money, that there's responsibility with it, that having it doesn't mean that you're better than someone else, like that sort of things.
And I think the thing that, as parents, that I think we can't do enough of is to really teach our kids to appreciate things and to be grateful for what they have. Now, what I don't mean by that, now, I grew up in a super Christian household, and so for me giving thanks and being humble are kind of, I’ve got some PTSD around that.
So I just want to be clear, just in case some of you have that background too, this isn't about being, I actually really hate the word humble because I also feel like it can be taken to the extreme where people are afraid to be proud of who they are and their accomplishments. And us women, we already have a hard time with that so that's not what I'm saying.
But to really teach our kids to enjoy the moment, enjoy the present, be present, know and appreciate what they have, and know that not everyone has that available to them. Not in a they should be so grateful, it's just instilling a sense that what they have is amazing and to appreciate it.
Because when we don't do that, here's what happens, it's like almost teaching them unconsciously that things or opportunities make them feel better, or it creates happiness. And I think we all sort of hear stories or maybe watch movies about parents who buy things for their kids to like make up for the lack of attention. It doesn't teach them to appreciate things, it doesn't teach them love and connection, right?
And so I actually think the way to create kids who are not entitled and spoiled is really just about parenting, teaching, guiding them, talking about, not just about money, but about really everything. Asking about how they feel, asking about behaviors that might become problematic in life.
So I think it is our job to notice these things about them and to like course correct. And I may have said this before, but I actually have bought two parenting courses, but the one that I really like is called Big Little Feelings.
And I just think it does a great job just sort of explaining how, you know, I have a four year old, so he's a toddler. So your kids might be a lot older, but just how brain development is happening rapidly and at certain ages they can't understand or grasp certain concepts as well. But that doesn't mean that you shouldn't have those conversations.
And so you have to remember that our prefrontal cortex is not fully developed well into our 20s. Well, that's more for men, as you know. Women, our brains develop faster. So in case you didn't know that, that's a thing. So I actually was reading, or maybe it was from the course that I learned that it's really important for us to have these conversations with our kids.
And actually, the big thing the course emphasizes which is, I think, something that a lot of us have trouble with is really to normalize all feelings. Because I grew up and I think many of you grew up sort of where it wasn't like kosher to show certain feelings, or we were taught it's not good to have certain feelings like anger and sadness.
And so one of the things that they said is, you can start really early, you know, when they're toddlers and start having some tantrums or whatever, is to really normalize things. Actually, one of the scripts they say, I'm just going to teach you real quick, is you point out the emotion, like you name it. So I think it's really important to give them that vocabulary.
So using my son, Jack, as an example because he is angry and frustrated a lot. So just saying like, “Hey, I see that you're frustrated.” And so that helps them name that emotion. But then you give them permission, then you say, “It's okay to be frustrated.” And that's so important. And then sort of pointing out the behavior that's not okay.
So, all feelings are okay, so I want you guys to know that too, but certain behaviors might not be okay. And so the example I have with Jack is, you know, if he's hitting or throwing his things when he's frustrated, right? So pointing out how that's not okay.
And, you know, he's not going to understand why it's not okay. I don't think telling him people might not like you, like that's not going to register in his toddler brain. And then giving him an example of what he can do instead.
So I kind of went off on a tangent there. But oh, the reason why I said it, I was like, “Why am I saying this?” Because what the course was saying is that when you parent and discipline in this way, it actually helps their prefrontal cortex develop in a better way, I’m paraphrasing exactly what they said, versus instilling fear by hitting or yelling, and why it doesn't work.
And a lot of us grew up with parents who did that, myself included. And they talk about why it's not effective and how long term it has really negative consequences. So that's kind of a long winded way, but it really comes down to good parenting in terms of what creates entitled and spoiled.
And so basically, the point of my podcast today is that money itself does not do that. And then I want to talk about sort of the opposite because I think we worry so much about having money, blah, blah, blah, might make our kids entitled and spoiled. So what else could it do?
And remember, money itself doesn't make you think or feel things. But, you know, the thing I suggested to my client who I was coaching on this was what if they grew up believing that making money is easy and totally possible for them? Because basically all my clients struggle with this thought, they really have trouble believing that making money is easy. They have trouble believing that they can make more money.
So how awesome would it be for your kids to believe that the sky is the limit, without being entitled and spoiled? Do you see what I mean? And so this is also why a lot of people who grew up with money are able to be successful. I think a lot of us have stories about why like, oh, they had a leg up and yeah, they did. But just because they had money doesn't automatically create success.
Now I know some of you are going to argue with me and say, well, there's nepotism. Yeah, sure that definitely exists. But that's not the only reason why people succeed. So that's really all I have for you guys today and I want to reassure everyone that having a lot of money isn't going to corrupt you, it's not going to corrupt your kids. That is just not a thing.
All right, so that's all I have for you guys today, and I will talk to you guys next week.
Hey, if you enjoyed this episode and don’t want to miss out on new episodes please hit the subscribe button on your favorite podcast app. See you next week.
Get started on creating wealth. Get my book -- Defining Wealth for Women.
102: What You Need to Know About Student Loan Forgiveness with Travis Hornsby
On the podcast this week I have someone I consider to be a good friend of mine, Travis Hornsby. He's the founder of Student Loan Planner, a consulting company that helps physicians and other professionals really understand their student loans, their repayment options, and how you can save money either by refinancing or qualifying for the Public Service Loan Forgiveness Program (PSLF).
So many physicians have questions about their student loans, and with there being a PLSF waiver currently in place, I thought now was the perfect time to have Travis on the podcast. So if you’re looking to see how you can minimize your student debt and start putting your money towards buying and growing assets instead, you’re in the right place.
Tune in this week as I share a conversation I had with Travis about why you should pay attention to the PSLF waiver, even if you’re thinking you’re not eligible. Some physicians have gotten six figures of student debt forgiven, with one of my own clients making a $350,000 saving, so it’s definitely worth looking into, and Travis is here to walk us through it.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- 3 ways physicians can go about paying off their student loans.
- How much Travis has managed to save his physician clients on their student loans.
- Why you might be eligible for a huge debt waiver under PSLF.
- How you might be eligible now, even if you haven't been eligible for loan forgiveness in the past.
- The mistakes I made and so many other physicians make with their student loans.
- Some of the one-sided advice floating around out there in the physician student finance space.
- Why now is the time to get in touch with Travis and discover how he can help you.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
- Travis Hornsby: Website | Twitter | Book a Consult
- PSLF Waiver
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey, everyone. So today I have a special episode for you. I have a special guest, someone that I consider a good friend of mine, Travis Hornsby, he is the founder of Student Loan Planner.
And in case you're not familiar with his company, basically they're a consulting company that physicians and other professionals who have student loans, it's a way to really understand your student loans, all of your repayment options, and basically is there a way for you to save money?
Either by refinancing or to see if you're eligible for the Public Student Loan Forgiveness Program, also known as PSLF. Which is a way to get your loans forgiven after 10 years of qualified payments, tax free. Meaning let's say you got 300K forgiven, you don't have to pay taxes on that.
There's also another forgiveness program that after 20 years you do get your loans forgiven, but it is taxable. Still probably a better deal than actually paying off your loans. And so I wanted to have Travis on, I don't think I've actually had him on ever on this podcast, because there's something special going on called the PSLF waiver.
Now, I started hearing about this, but I didn't know much about it until one of my clients inside of Money For Women Physicians actually got over $350,000 worth of student loans forgiven. And she is a pediatrician and so this was honestly life changing for her, right? For her to not have this debt and now she can really put her dollars towards buying and growing assets. And she had already been doing that, she had just bought her first rental property, renovated it, and it is now rented.
And so I really want to make sure you guys were all aware of it. And I've started talking about it inside my free Facebook group, Wealthy Minded Women Physicians. So if you are a female physician, you definitely need to get into my group. I do special things like this, I'm trying to do them about once a month where I bring in a guest speaker or I do a Facebook Live to discuss a topic.
And so you're about to listen to a Facebook Live that I knew was going to be a podcast. And so you're going to hear us talk for about 30 minutes and we actually ended up doing a live Q&A, that part we're not going to put on the podcast for privacy reasons. But if you’re in the Facebook group, you can watch the whole thing, it's about an hour long.
Now, what I will say about the waiver is even though I've been talking about it, many physicians are assuming they aren't eligible. Because if you're not eligible for PSLF, you kind of know that already. And so here are a few things I just want to be clear about the waiver and why you should pay attention even if you're thinking, “Oh, this doesn't apply to me.”
The whole point of the waiver is that people who were previously ineligible might be eligible. And some physicians have gotten multiple hundreds of dollars forgiven. I just gave the example of my client who had over 350K. But obviously, even if it's a smaller amount, even if it's like 50K or 100K, that is worth looking into, I think, right?
And so here's the thing with PSLF in general, you have to have the right kinds of loans, basically direct loans. And you had to be on the right repayment plan for the payments to count. And so what the waiver is actually doing is allowing people with certain ineligible loans, they still have to be federal, they can now count as eligible loans.
Now they don't themselves count, but you can actually consolidate them into the direct loan, and all of those previous qualified payments will count. Now, this is a big deal because if you previously had or if you currently have these loans that don't qualify and had payments, now those payments can count towards PSLF, okay?
And when you do consolidate them, the one with the highest number of payments becomes the number of payments for all them. And so one of the examples we talked about in this live that you're about to hear, which may have been in the Q&A portion that's been cut out, is Travis gave an example of how one of his clients, their med school loans he didn't quite have enough payments, but because he had federal loans from college where he did have payments, he was able to get his loans forgiven.
Now there are some intricacies, so I still want you to listen to this just to hear if maybe you might be eligible. And he gives you some tips on just how to check on the payments that are sort of been recorded by the federal government, it's all on studentloan.gov. And if you think there might be a chance, then I recommend you book a consult with Travis' team.
Now in order to do that, you want to go to wealthymommd.com/travis, T-R-A-V-I-S. Again, that's wealthymommd.com/travis and that'll take you to a page where you can book a consult. Now, just to be clear, this is an affiliate link so I may get a commission if you book it. And there's also a special for you if you do decide to book a consult with him.
Generally speaking his consults also come with six months of email support. So you have a consult, they pretty much tell you everything you should know. But some email support six months, or it might be three months, but it's some amount of time for you to ask questions. And if you book through my link, you get an additional amount of time for the email support. So that's what you'll get if you book through my link.
And even if it turns out that you're not eligible for the waiver, I think it's worth spending that money just to get the peace of mind just to know for sure you looked into it. But I'll leave that up to you. So again, listen to this conversation, you're going to learn a lot and I'm guessing some of you listening, maybe a lot of you, are going to be eligible and you're going to get a good amount of money forgiven.
And if this happens to be you, I want to hear about it. Email me, email me at support@wealthymommd.com. I just would love to hear if this applies to you and you get some money forgiven, because how fun is that? And then you can really start diverting those payments into investing, okay? And that is the only way to really create what I call true wealth where you're not depending on your active income, where you're trading time for money for your income. All right, so here is our conversation.
---
Bonnie: I'm so excited to have my friend Travis Hornsby here. When was the last time I saw you in person? Was it in Philadelphia?
Travis: I don't know, it's been way too long. I know that.
Bonnie: And I haven't lived in Philly since 2019, so that's been a few years. This was before your daughter was born. So okay. So for those of you who don't know who Travis is, he is the founder of Student Loan Planner. And what they do is they help anyone with student loans, I guess, to educate them to make sure they're doing their student loans right. I'm probably not explaining it very well, Travis.
But basically, if anyone's having trouble with their student loans and wants to make sure they're sort of doing the right things and want that peace of mind, I always recommend Travis and his team to have that consultation. And I think, Travis, you even have some stats on how much money you've saved for your clients, right?
Travis: Yeah, we've saved people a total projected $380 million.
Bonnie: That's crazy.
Travis: Yeah, I'll pull up the position numbers real quick to give it specific to physicians. It's different for each profession because, you know, physicians have more debt, other kind of professions might have less debt. So 1,073 physicians, the average physician medical school debt we've advised is 332,000. So that's like the average that we see. And then the average projected savings we found for those clients is 70,559.
We typically, on average, find projected savings about 100 times our consult fee, because our consult fee is like 400 to $600 one time. That's pretty good ROI for most people. Occasionally we find people that we can't save any money for, but I would say with the PSLF waiver in place right now we're finding, in some cases, insane savings because of the complex rules surrounding this until October.
Bonnie: Yeah, so that's one of the reasons why I wanted to have you on because one of my clients, and she's on this Zoom call right now, had 350K in student loans forgiven, I believe due to the waiver. So she can correct me if I'm wrong. And so I want to make sure people know about this because you have to do something by October. And so I thought I would bring you on since you are the expert to talk about it.
So I think people are familiar with public service loan forgiveness, but do you want to just give a really quick overview of that program? And then we can move on to talking about the waiver.
Travis: Yeah, for sure. So I would say just before I even get into that, like physicians typically will pay back their loans one of three ways. The easiest is paying it back. You know, that’s pretty straightforward, you just pay the principal and interest and pay it down to zero. So that's one path and a lot of times that'll result in refinancing it to a lower interest rate, right?
The second path is PSLF, which a lot of people are familiar with. You have to work for 10 years at a nonprofit or government employer full time while making payments on an income based plan. And after those 10 years of cumulative credit, the loans are forgiven tax free.
So a lot of physicians think it's only those two options, pay it back or get PSLF. There's actually a third option, which is maybe say you're a primary care physician in a private practice, maybe you've got private medical school loans of like 400,000. Your debt to income ratio is going to be large enough that going for loan forgiveness over 20 years would make a whole lot of sense if you look at the numbers.
So those are the three paths that people can take. And Public Service Loan Forgiveness is the path, I would say that at least a plurality of physicians take, maybe a majority because so many physicians work in nonprofit settings.
Bonnie: Yeah, and so one thing I didn't realize, so I didn't know anything about public, actually do you know when the program started, approximately?
Travis: 2007.
Bonnie: Okay, so it was started, because I graduated med school in 2009, I had to think about that for a second. And I didn't know anything about it and, my God, I probably would have had my loans forgiven because residency counts, and so I didn't know that. Like pretty much everyone's residency counts, I think. And so four years of residency, I did two years of research, so that's four, that's six. And I worked two at an academic institution.
And so I guess I would have needed two more years because after that I started working for, I'm assuming a for profit private practice. But if I knew what I knew now, I probably could have gotten some part of my, but my student loan burden, I think, relatively speaking, was on the lower end. So I don't have any bad mojo around that.
Okay, so do you want to say a bit more about that third option in case people aren't familiar with that?
Travis: Yeah, so you can pay based off of three different income based plans. Income Based Repayment is the one people know about, but that's the oldest income based plan that most people know about. There's Revised Pay As You Earn and Pay As You Earn, that you can pay a little bit less than IBR, 10% of your income. And then that third option, most people will do pay as you earn and they'll do that for 20 years, and they'll pay 10% of their incomes.
And there's just a whole bunch of ways to get that payment really low. So think about it just kind of like instead of paying 4,000 a month if you're this primary care physician making like 200 grand, maybe you're paying 1500 a month and you're doing that for 20 years and it just works out to being way cheaper. Even including any kind of catches. Like in the private sector if your loans are forgiven, you have to pay income taxes currently on the forgiven balance.
So even factoring, things like that in, it can still be cheaper if you have a lot of debt relative to your income. And of course with Public Service Loan Forgiveness, people don't have to worry about that tax liability. It's tax free forgiveness, which is nice.
Bonnie: Yeah, that's an important point. So I just want to say a few things. So just some of the acronyms you might have heard of, and you're like, what does that mean? So Income Based Repayment is often IBR. You mentioned the Pay As You Earn, that's pay PAYE. And then what does the RE stand for? Is it just RE?
Travis: Revised.
Bonnie: Revised Pay As You Earn or REPAYE. So just in case you see those acronyms, that's what they stand for. Okay, yeah, I don't think PAYE or REPAYE were around when I graduated, but I don't know because I wasn't paying attention.
Travis: They weren't, it came out like 2013 for PAYE and then 2016 for REPAYE. So yeah, it was kind of before.
Bonnie: Yeah, so one thing I want to say before we move on with this conversation is do not do what I did, which is I just forbeared every year. I didn't know what else to do, no one told me. I remember going to the exit interview at my med school and, obviously, I didn't learn anything because I didn't know what to do and I just forbeared. I remember signing the piece of paper every year just forbeared.
So don't do that because then I wasn't eligible for any loan forgiveness, number one. And then number two, my interest capitalized to something crazy like $70,000 when I was done with my training. So don't do that. And that's why we're here to educate you.
Travis: Well, one kind of crazy thing that I want to just throw out there and then we can like come back to it is any physicians that are on this call that are like 35 or older with this PSLF waiver could have everything forgiven immediately, potentially.
Bonnie: Why is 35 the magic number?
Travis: So you have to have 10 years of service, I should say 36 and above, right? You know, so the reason I say that is because the PSLF waiver kind of counts all repayment plans, all types of loans. And in many cases, there's just all kinds of strategy behind this. So I'll give you one example that I think would be helpful people hear stuff and they’re like, what?
This is a male physician, but he had one loan from undergrad that had been in consistent repayment that wasn't eligible for PSLF, it's called an FFEL loan. And he had been paying this loan since 2007. And everything else, all his loans for med school, he did the same thing you did, Bonnie. He was like forbear, forbear, forbear. And then he's like, “Oh, shoot, I shouldn’t have been doing that. Let me go start my payments.”
So with the waiver because he had that one single loan that had been in repayment the whole time, we were able to consolidate that loan with all the others and then that applied all the payments that he made on that small loan, even though it was only for like $4,000 on the 300,000 that he had for med school. He's getting his loans immediately forgiven because of it.
Bonnie: Okay, we just need to pause, like that's incredible.
Travis: He freaked out.
Bonnie: That's why we're doing this. He freaked out. Did he give you a hug?
Travis: A virtual hug, I do my meetings over Zoom. I mean, so that's not normal, so what's going on right now? Because a lot of people that don't follow student loans are like, what is the PSLF waiver? What does that even mean, right?
So basically, why are payments and interests still paused? Why have they been paused for two years? It’s because of the pandemic. So the president normally can't just say, I don't want to have voters pay the loans. He or he can't just do that. You have to have a national emergency declaration in place, which gives the president extraordinary powers over the ability to like modify these loan programs, right?
So that's why this pause is going on right now, it’s because of this national emergency declaration. So, the Biden administration has been facing calls by progressives to cancel 10,000 of student debt. And for various reasons, hasn't done that. And so one of the things they did do was say, well, you know what? Because of the pandemic we're going to say that that gives us the authority to waive a lot of the usual requirements for PSLF that are existing in a statute.
But because it's a limited period that they can do this for because it's the national emergency is what gives them the authority to bypass Congress, they had to set an expiration date by which you have to apply to get a lot of these normal rules and requirements waived for yourself and for your loans that normally apply, that are waived completely for a temporary period of time because of the pandemic.
So that's what the PSLF waiver kind of is. It’s sort of like, remember those media stories, Bonnie? It’s like nobody gets PSLF, have you ever seen one of those? Like 1% of people get PSLF?
Bonnie: No, yeah, I feel like people didn't believe it was going to actually happen for any doctors.
Travis: Yeah, well, I mean, and that's because the kind of loans people had before 2010 basically didn't qualify, because it was on a different loan program. And so everybody that was applying was applying with loans that didn't count. And so that's why people had no kind of confidence in the program. And so those rules though, they exist because Congress wrote them. For good or ill, the rules are the rules based on what Congress wrote, right?
So the Biden administration is pausing and sort of waving all these rules if you do, basically two steps. One is make sure your loans are direct loans by potentially consolidating them all together. That's one step, I would say that’s step one. And step two is certifying all periods of employment that you've ever worked at a nonprofit at studentaid.gov/PSLF. Those are the two steps you need to do to get the PSLF waiver maximally applied to your situation.
Now, the problem is, is it's not just that easy because some physicians have super low payments that are going to last until 2023 because of the pandemic. So even when payments to do start again, and in a lot of cases they're not asking physicians to re-certify their incomes till 2023 based off of the guidance they issued. So, unfortunately, I guess you could say, self-interestedly, that's why we have a business, I guess, right? It's like, there are these strategies and loopholes and methods that you can do.
You said, if you could do it over again you’d do things differently. My wife would have had her entire loan balance forgiven because of this PSLF waiver. And she consolidated at the wrong time, got bad advice, and that cost us six figures. And so I was like, wow, this is really complicated, a lot more so than you would think. Like, oh, just work 10 years and your loans are forgiven. You know, it's just more complicated than that.
So that's why I said if you're 36 or over, you could have all of your loans forgiven. Because let's say you had the wrong kind of loans, or let's say you have more credit on some loans than others, or let's say that you worked at a nonprofit for a year as an MA prior to applying for medical school, right?
There's all these scenarios where you could gain a bunch of extra years of credit on your PSLF and have it forgiven, If you have 10 years’ worth of cumulative credit through this strategy, you could get it forgiven immediately, which is really crazy. And also, that's the point, is to say that it's only temporary because the pandemic and they've already stated that that's going to end October 31st.
Bonnie: Okay, so I just want to make sure I'm clear and everyone who's watching this is clear. So what the waiver does is basically gives you maybe the ability to actually accumulate years that count towards PSLF. Is that true?
Travis: Yep.
Bonnie: And even if you don't reach the 10, you might be at five or seven or eight. So you have to do things by October, but you don't have to accumulate those 10 years by October, right?
Travis: You don't have to accumulate the 10 years by October, correct. And some people are not going to get total forgiveness, they'll just get an extra year or an extra two years, or extra credit towards the 10 years that they need to get.
Bonnie: Okay, I think this is amazing and everyone should be listening closely. So, who should do something about their situation? Because some people listening might be like, “Well, do I qualify?” Like they're going to want to know.
So what are some guidelines you have about who might be eligible and take the next steps? I always tell people you should just work with Travis and his team because I don't think it's worth our time to Google this stuff. This is why Travis started his business because he realized his, well your girlfriend at the time, now wife, just like it's confusing.
And just like I said, I didn't understand it at all and we're all super smart people. And like I said, I forbeared and missed out on potentially having six figure of loans forgiven. Oh, yeah, because, Travis, I went to a private undergrad and I had loans from that. So that may have… Anyway, so I don't want to think about it. It's okay, it’s paid off.
Travis: Well, let's do a challenge here just for fun. So I put it in the chat, the instructions of how to download an NSLDS file, see if you can download your NSLDS and then email that to me at travis@studentloanplanner.com. And if somebody does that, somebody might not take us up on that, but if somebody does that, I'll anonymize your name.
Your loans I'll actually show if you do this, but I'll anonymize your name and if you enable screen sharing, Bonnie, we could look at that live and just talk through it a little bit just to show somebody what an actual PSLF waiver situation looks like.
So a Harvard MD, I think she was in her, maybe her mid 40s had loans that she'd consolidated, some FFEL consolidation loans, FFEL consolidation loans. These kind of loans are from before 2010.
Bonnie: All right, someone's doing it. So they're going to send it to me.
Travis: Oh yeah? Okay, cool. Well, forward that to me if they do that. So this example here, this Harvard MD physician basically had been paying her loans at like 3% because she'd consolidated them with the FFEL program in the mid 2000s and that was the interest rate of the government.
So she was assuming that she would just pay these loans off, right? Well, she'd been working full time at a nonprofit and she basically didn't have what's called a partial financial hardship. And that's what you need, basically, to have a payment that's low enough to get some loans forgiven.
If you have an income that's much higher than your debt, then you might not be able to get on an income based plan that gives you a low enough payment to get a bunch forgiven with 10 more years of payments, right? And so in her case--
Bonnie: Check your email, Travis.
Travis: All right, so I'm going to run this in the background. Yeah, so basically, in her case she was able to get her entire loans forgiven, which is just really crazy.
And so while we're waiting on that, let's just talk briefly too about the non-PSLF path some more, because I do think that that's a really interesting path. And maybe we'll do even a couple if we have time because this is really fun.
Bonnie: Oh yeah, someone sent one too. They’re all excited.
Travis: I know, I know. So I'll run this first one first, I'll try to change the name, obviously, so people cannot see the name, but they'll see the loans.
But for people that are private practice or something like that, I think there is a lot of kind of bad advice out there about paying back loans. The focus people have is on their debt and on their interest and things like that.
You know, I want people to have the maximum freedom because being a physician is so stressful, being a physician’s spouse is stressful because I get a small taste of the stress my wife feels after seeing patients all day. And it's just like it's not worth it to kill yourself to pay down your loans over like two or three years. There's a lot of advice that says that's the number one thing to do.
Bonnie: I agree, I think that’s bad advice.
Travis: Yeah, well, I don't know, what would you say is some bad advice in the physician finance space when it comes to debt, Bonnie?
Bonnie: Well, I wouldn't say it's just bad advice, but it's just like one sided. And one of the things that I like to do for my clients is I never say this is the right thing to do. I just want them to understand all the options and really help them make the best decision for them.
Because for some of my clients, they really want to pay off their debt quickly. I mean, I wouldn't do that, but if that's what they truly want to do, I'm not going to tell them don't do that, right? But yeah, there is advice out there saying you should pay them off within five years. Or just pay off, I think in general pay off your debt ASAP because you shouldn't have debt. And so people spend so much time paying off debt.
And to me the problem with that is, and people who know me know my stance on this, but then you're not investing that money and building assets. Which having money make money for you, being debt free is great, don't get me wrong, right? But figuring out how to make money work for you is a better thing.
Travis: Can you see my screen?
Bonnie: I can, yeah.
Travis: Okay, hopefully everyone put in the chat if you can see it. So we're going to call this person H. Smith, I made that name up obviously. Okay, so I really don't want to make this person upset because this is like a perfect example to show and demonstrate the PSLF waiver.
So the first thing that I see, and this is a tool that I built to try to figure out how to maximize the benefits of this waiver because it’s just like a fast moving situation and Excel is great for those kind of things. So these green loans are called FFEL unsubsidized and subsidized loans. So these loans are from before 2010.
So what I can tell here, probably what happened is these loans were consolidated, which means that the person turned a bunch of loans into one loan, right? So they turned those loans into probably these loans.
Bonnie: Did you just zero out the balances?
Travis: No, so this person looks like they paid off their loans in full. So this is, again, a tool based off of the NSLDS file, which I won't show, which is that thing that the person sent me. So you can see here paid in full, and then it shows the dates.
So 2021 was the date they paid off the last two. And then some of these were paid off in like 2016, 2017, you know, and then some of these were paid off by a consolidation loan. So it looks like these two loans were paid off in February of 2021.
Some of these loans look like they're owned by like a private lender that's guaranteed by the government. And a couple of them are owned by the Department of Education. So this is the thing that's really striking on this, so do you see the number of payments that this person had on their loans? So there's 102, some of it says six, there's 53, you know what I mean? So this is all reflecting like different numbers of payments on this person's loans.
So what the PSLF waiver says, so let's say this person worked for a nonprofit hospital the whole time. They could consolidate this and get the maximum amount of credit based off of whatever loan has the most credit.
So you take all these loans that have all this different numbers of credit, and you turn it into a loan that's got 102 months of credit, that now only needs 18 more months and the whole thing is forgiven. So that's really, really striking.
And by the way, FFEL loans, FFEL loans, this type of loan is not eligible for PSLF forgiveness at all. So before this waiver, you would have to do 10 years of payments. After this waiver until October, this person consolidated, they've got 18 months of payments until everything's gone tax free.
So I'm going to stop screen share and we can keep talking, I'm going to see if I can do someone else's loans here.
Bonnie: Obviously, no one knew that this waiver was going to happen. But I guess this is maybe just showing that maybe it's best not to pay off the debt so quickly. Because not just because of this, because hopefully there will not be another pandemic anytime soon. But so I'm just trying to think like, why else would you not pay? It's like, not pay it off because there are other ways to use your money besides paying off debt.
Travis: Well, I mean, just think about the stock market in the past like 10 years. I mean, the stock market performed like incredibly well. Like if you used even like a dollar to pay down debt instead of invest, you lost on that, I mean, compared to investing.
Now, I don't necessarily believe that's going to last, I think that was just like the past 10 years. And I do think that getting out of debt is a good thing in a lot of cases. I guess my thing is just I don't want anybody to overdo it one way or the other. I think balance is important and achieving life goals is super important.
And I think a lot of times, I don't know, for like a lot of families you feel like you're starting your life really late, I guess, is my point. Like if we had waited to pay off, my wife had a ton of debt and we waited to pay that off until we did a lot of things we wanted to do, maybe we'd still be waiting. I don't know.
So we're running another one of these programs here to take a look at it. I mean, it's just kind of crazy. Like, you know, I used to be a bond trader and it was really hard to get good yields for clients and outperform the market or benchmarks. Even though I worked at Vanguard as a bond trader, so it was like a lot easier because the fees of the funds were low. But then I got into the student loans and I'm like, oh my gosh, you can know a couple loopholes, save a ton of money, and it's a lot easier. So maybe I should just go do that.
Okay, oh, this is a really good one here. So I'm going to change the name of the person and then we'll share this one, this will be a good one.
Bonnie: I think we're excited for this person.
Travis: Yeah, I think so. So take a look at this, right. This is exactly the kind of thing that we're talking about. So a FFEL consolidated loan for 80,000, with 116 months of payment credit. And then 75 and 79 on the rest of these. So these loans are direct loans, right, these loans would be eligible for PSLF just by themselves.
And then if we look at nature of this FFEL consolidated loan, that's kind of what I'm interested in seeing. So this consolidation loan that had the 116 months of credit, I just want to see exactly what the details were of that.
So it's in repayment since 2008, so that's one thing I'm noticing. And a lot of these other ones were forbearance repayment, forbearance repayment, which probably because these loans were from med school and maybe some of these other loans were from undergrad or something. That's often the pattern that I notice.
And so there was a little bit of a brief moment of deferment and then in repayment. So let's see if we feel like that's accurate with this deferred status. So basically, we have a part of the spreadsheet that sort of calculates months between periods. So 81 months of credit while this person was out of their deferment, and then 34 months before that. And so that would sum up to the–
Bonnie: So this is why we hire Travis, because can you imagine trying to figure this out on your own?
Travis: Well, yeah, so basically here's kind of the gist, right? So the gist is between August of 2011 and 2008, and then also 2015 and today, was that person employed full time by a nonprofit, a nonprofit or government employer, yes or no? If yes, then this person would consolidate this loan with the other loans, and then they would have 116 months of credit and then they'd be four months away from the entire thing being forgiven tax free.
Now, there are a couple reasons why you might want to do even more planning with this. So for example, the person's income based payment is $700 a month and that's going to, because of the pandemic, last until probably 2023. So this person won't be asked to re-certify their payment of 700 a month until 2023.
We're in March here and the deadline for the PSLF waiver is in October. So I would say March, April, May, June, July, so based off of looking at this, we would have a conversation as to what the person's income is. And if their income is pretty low, we probably would consolidate it immediately and just not care that we would have to re-certify their monthly payment.
Does that make sense? So, Bonnie, most people are not going to care about minimizing their IBR payment if they could get 500,000 forgiven tax free. This is just something we like to save people down to the closest amount that we can and then we can help them talk through decisions as to how much they want to save versus how easy do they want it to be, right?
So that's like the push, pull, We've done 7,000 of these consults, so that's like the experience part of it. It's like how easy versus how much do you want to make sure you're focused on those guaranteed savings?
Bonnie: So it sounds like this person should definitely do a consult with your team?
Travis: Yeah. So that's incredible because this was going to be around no matter what. These loans only have 79 months of credit. This person, let's say they're an attending, they're going to be paying 2 to 3,000 a month for an extra three and a half, four years. So you're saving someone like $100,000 just by knowing the PSLF waiver in this case.
So for the people that it applies for, it's really life changing right now.
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101: NRMP Match Day: How to Handle Disappointment
Every March is near and dear to my heart because it’s when the NRMP (National Resident Matching Program) Match Day happens. For those of you who don’t know, I didn’t match until the third time I applied to dermatology. Every year around this time, I see people on social media talking about Match Day and celebrating, and it brings up a lot of memories for me.
I know this is an experience so many doctors share. It was definitely not ideal that it took me so long to get a match for my chosen specialty. So, in this episode, I’m sharing what this experience was like for me, the lessons I learned at the time and in the years since, and how I look back on that whole chapter of my life.
Tune in this week for an insight into my experiences over the years around NRMP Match Day. I’m sharing the failures and what I made them mean, the emotional and mental impact of being the only unmatched dermatology applicant, and how my perspective on this situation has transformed over the past few years.
If you're ready to take control of your money and practice medicine on your terms, you need to check out Money for Women Physicians. Click here to learn more!
What You'll Learn from this Episode:
- The emotions I was experiencing when I found out I didn’t match in my first two attempts.
- What I made it mean and how I tried to cope with my emotions around what I considered at the time to be a failure.
- Why I decided not to give up after experiencing rejection twice, and how I made sure I’d get accepted on the third attempt.
- How to start viewing your disappointments through a more neutral lens.
Listen to the Full Episode:
Featured on the Show:
- Learn more about Money for Women Physicians where you'll learn the tools to make practicing medicine OPTIONAL.
- Follow me on Instagram
Welcome to The Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to up-level your money and your life. I’m your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.
Hey, everyone, welcome to episode 101. And so, I am recording this right before my family and I are going on a two week vacation to Hawaii. Those of you who know me, know that I love Hawaii. I love to go there at least once a year, if not twice a year. And this time I'm bringing my parents.
And, fun fact, I used points to book all of our flights. So I got five round trip tickets from New York to Honolulu all on points, I just had to pay some minor fee. The lodging is not free, we got a condo for a week through Airbnb, a two bedroom condo for the fam. And we will be there for a week.
And then my parents go home. And then Matt and I and Little Jack are moving on to the Four Seasons Oahu, one of my favorite hotels ever. And it's interesting, I've never stayed at the Four Seasons in Maui, or Big Island, or Lanai, I've heard those are amazing. Actually, we've been to the one and Big Island for dinner but I've actually never stayed there.
And so the one in Oahu is the smallest, not as luxury or whatever you want to call it than the others. And that doesn't matter to me, I love it. To me it is small, when I say small, it's smaller than the other ones which have a lot more land and they're sort of more spread out. But I don't know, something about it is magical to me.
It was where I was supposed to have my retreat that was supposed to be November of 2020, but we all know what happened that year, it was COVID. So I had to refund everybody and cancel the whole thing. I'm not going to go all into how that panned out. But basically, I have a credit to use and so I have to use it. And so it was going to expire the end of March so I was like we better go to Hawaii and use this credit, because why should I let that go to waste?
And I still want to do some sort of live event. So I don't know exactly what I want to do, probably won't be until 2023. Although I have some ideas about maybe doing something smaller this year, like later on in the year, like November-ish. But I will definitely keep you posted. I have this vision of doing a money and women retreat/conference, of course, that makes sense. But my original vision, the one I had for November 2020 was purely going to be a coaching retreat.
And I think retreats and live events are magical. It's not just about the content, it's about, I think, being at a really great place and, of course, somewhere beautiful like Hawaii. Being at a luxurious place, traveling to the place, all of that I think creates an atmosphere where you are prioritizing yourself, not just in terms of self-care, but you're investing in yourself. You're making the commitment to spend time and money to do this. And that's so important.
Plus when something's in person, and not that Zoom events or meetings aren't as useful, but they're different. There's something about being in person, being around other people who are sort of invested in the same thing, like there's something magical that happens. And you just don't know what's going to come out of it, like the friendships you'll make, the people you meet. And so I am just so excited to do this.
Of course, one of my major hesitancies is the pandemic, although I think things are getting better. In fact, I just read that Hawaii is lifting their travel restrictions, which don't start until after our trip. And it's a little annoying. I mean, we're all vaccinated so we just have to upload our vaccination cards.
But mainly, we have to get Jack tested for COVID. He had COVID, although that doesn't mean he won't be able to get it again, but we have to get them tested before we go. So that's the only thing that's slightly annoying about going, of course, I think it's all for good reasons.
Okay, so I just want to share a bit about that. And I'm super excited about the trip and I'm sure I will tell you guys more about the trip afterwards. So what I want to talk about today, I actually don't have anything scripted or even outlined, which is very unusual for me when it comes to doing a podcast. But every March is kind of near and dear to me because it's when, as you know, the annual match day, the NRMP, whatever it stands for Match Day happens.
And so for those of you who don't know, I didn't match until the third time I applied to dermatology. And so every year around this time I'm seeing all the posts on Instagram, on Facebook talking about Match Day. I mean, none of my friends are doing that because we're all doctors and we've been out of residency for a long time. But most of us know people or we're celebrating match day kind of reminiscing what that day was about.
And so, like I said, I didn't get in twice. And so I thought I would sort of share what that was like and sort of share some lessons whether I learned them then and how I think about it now.
So, as you know, dermatology is pretty hard to get into. And despite going to a top 10 medical school, Columbia University. Despite having pretty good grades, they weren't the top, I definitely wasn't the top of my class. Despite having pretty good board scores, I did not match. Now, I had quite a few interviews, and for that I was grateful.
And I guess I could say I didn't interview well, like I don't actually remember what happened. But suffice to say, I did not get in. And, of course, I was devastated, I remember where I was. And the results were emailed to you, and so I remember getting the email and I think the subject is something like, did I match?
And I think the email read something like this, “I'm sorry, you did not match into any program.” Now, not only did I not match into dermatology, I didn't even match to an internship. Part of my brain could get on board with not matching in derm, no matter how devastating that is because I knew it was hard. But I didn't get a freaking internship.
So just imagine, or rather, I remember how that felt. I felt really dumb, to be honest, like I felt like a total failure. Now I scrambled into an internship. And I remember there was a handful of us who didn't match, I wasn't the only one. And we were in the Dean's office and I remember my dean telling me these were the open spots available.
And I don't remember the details, but I remember she said, I'm going to get you the spot, or whatever happened, but it worked out. So I got a spot and ended up doing my internship in New York. It was Long Island, but I was able to stay in Brooklyn, New York City and I just commuted there. So that happened.
And then I applied again. And I got interviews, but less interviews, and I didn't match again. And so I remember what I did, I'm laughing because I'm remembering. I bought two pairs of Christian Louboutin shoes to kind of make myself feel better.
I still have those shoes, although one of them, they don't fit my feet anymore. Like my feet got a little crazy, after having Jack they got bigger, wider, I don't know. But they don't fit me, I still have them, I probably should sell them. They're in mint condition because I only wore them a few times. But the other pair I still wear.
And I think this is such a great example of failure. Now, the way I define failure is you get an outcome you don't want. So, obviously, not matching was an outcome I didn't want. The outcome I wanted was to match into a program. And I made not getting in mean all sorts of things about me.
Like I thought I was a failure, meaning I suck. I'm not smart enough. I should have done this, I should have done that. And just kind of being embarrassed, right? Because everyone else matched into dermatology. Actually, one of my friends actually didn't match, but then she actually scrambled into a program which like never happens, but she did.
So basically, I was the only unmatched derm applicant. And I remember a lot of my classmates being surprised I didn't match because I've been sort of Derm or bust from day one of med school. And I actually ended up going to the in-person Match Day celebration where you get your envelope, although it gets emailed to you. But it's kind of like a ceremony that all medical students go to.
And I went, even though that was not an envelope waiting for me. I just wanted to see what it was like and experience it. And I remember my dean even saying like, “Oh, I'm surprised you're here.” And yeah, I didn't feel great being there, but I just wanted to see what it was like and experience it.
And so I just remember being so down about not matching, like just really thinking like, what should I do? Should I keep trying to be a dermatologist? And at this point, not having got into derm twice, people started telling me things like, well, why don't you just do internal medicine? Become a radiologist or basically suggesting I do something else.
And I just remember thinking, “Sure, I could do that. But that's not what I want to do, so why would I do it?” And I think I came to the conclusion that if it takes me longer to do it, I'd rather do that because then I'll be doing what I want. And why would I do something else, like I said, that I actually don't want to do?
And at this point, of course, I could have just reapplied but I decided I am going to really increase my chances of getting in. And so I ended up doing research at UC Irvine. But before I did that, you know, I was deciding between different research fellowships or even doing one, like do I really want to do this for two years? I’m delaying starting residency, you know, it was going to just delay when I would graduate, et cetera.
And I remember asking a friend of mine, and I said, “You know, if someone told you that if you did five years doing X,” he was actually someone who wants to be a Hollywood producer. And I said, if someone told you, “Hey, if you do this for five years, I will guarantee that you will become a producer.” I forget exactly what he wanted to do. And he was like, “Hell yeah, I would.”
And so obviously, doing these two years of research was not a guarantee, but it was kind of a guarantee. As long as you put the time in and did a great job, you were basically guaranteed a spot. And, of course, why wouldn't I do that, right. But of course, I was dealing with not wanting to spend those two years doing something that wasn't being a derm resident. But obviously, I accepted it, I did it, and I did match there.
So, obviously, we know the story turned out because I did match the third time. But here's the thing, I really wish I had the tools I have now because even though I became a dermatology resident, even though I finished, I passed the boards. I did really well on my in-service exams and I feel really confident as a dermatologist, like I think I'm very good at what I do, and I love that I persevered, but there was still a small part of me that felt like, well, I slipped in through the cracks.
Like I would just be telling myself these stories that diminished myself, like, well, I only got in because of this, et cetera, et cetera. Now, I just wish I had those tools back then because I think I would have had a very different experience. Listen, not getting what you want, I don't think it ever feels good.
I'm not saying that it will feel good or better just because you have these tools. But you'll just be in a much better position to think about it differently, to perhaps have more compassion for yourself, you know, it's okay to be disappointed. And not getting the outcome you wanted has nothing to do with you as a person, your self-worth, et cetera. It just means you didn't get the outcome you wanted.
And then you get to decide if you want to problem solve that from a more neutral place, examining, hey, why didn't I match? Hey, why didn't I get X number of interviews? Hey, why didn't they rank me higher? But it's hard to do that when you're feeling sorry for yourself, right?
And now that I'm pretty much entrepreneur now, I haven't practiced in about a year at this point. Of course, I did not think this when it was happening, but when I look back onto that whole experience, I'm so glad that happened. And I truly mean that. And here's why, I really think it taught me about perseverance and not quitting, and to not stop going after for what you want. I mean, it was my dream to be a dermatologist.
And so I just want to offer that to any of you out there who might be listening, who maybe you feel like you failed at something. Maybe you feel like you failed at money, meaning you've tried things, you've invested in something that didn't work out. It's okay to be disappointed, but that doesn't mean you should stop trying.
And the only way to for sure fail forever is to quit, that I know for sure. And so if any of you are medical students, I actually don't even know if I have medical student listeners, but I'm assuming there's a few of you out there. So if you end up being the person that doesn't match or you know someone who didn't match, because I'm sure you will, because in pretty much every class there is somebody who doesn't match.
I want you to offer them to listen to this episode. And if this is you, I just want to offer that, A, it's okay to be disappointed, B, it doesn't mean that you are not worthy, that there's something wrong with you. Okay? All right. That's what I have for you. I will see you guys next week.
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