Welcome to the Wealthy Mom MD Podcast, a podcast for women physicians who want to learn how to live a wealthy life. In this podcast, you will learn how to make money work for you, how you can have more of it, and learn the tools to empower you to live a life on purpose. Get ready to uplevel your money and your life. I'm your host, Dr. Bonnie Koo.

Hey everyone. Welcome back to another episode. Today you are going to hear from a financial advisor who is unlike any other that you've probably talked to. Now, I am not anti financial advisor. I never was. And I have found that their scope is quite limited in what they can actually do. And most of them sort of, you know, are kind of using the outdated paradigm of, you know, work for many years, put all your money in retirement accounts invested in index funds or stocks, and you'll be fine once you reach a certain age.

And there's nothing wrong with that approach. It's just that it's only one way and it's really predicated again on an old paradigm. Things are changing. I've talked about this ad nauseam, so I won't repeat it. But I think you all know how I think about money and how it should provide choices now and not just later. And how do you actually do that? News flash. Just maxing out your retirement accounts won't cut it if you want flexibility before you're 65.

So I was so excited when I met Austin Dean at a conference a few years ago. In fact, it was Peter Kim's Passive Income MD conference. And Peter had said, you know, I think you really like Austin and his team. And so he introduced us a few years ago and we've had a few conversations since. I really love the way that they approach money. We've had several meetings just for me to learn more about them.

Y' all know that I'm extremely careful and extremely picky with who I recommend. And so at the time of this recording, I don't have a financial relationship with them. And when this recording comes out, there's still time to actually join us at Peter Kim's conference in 2025. It's September 25th to 27th. It's called PIMDCON or Passive Income MD Conference, the physician Real Estate Entrepreneurship Conference. So I'll be there.

I'll be speaking on the entrepreneurship track. Austin and his team will be there as well. They're one of the sponsors if you want to attend. I'm pretty sure that there's still space and I do have an affiliate link for that conference, if you're interested, it's wealthymomd.com forward/p I M-C-O n all lowercase P I m D C O N. You can also attend virtually but we all know it's not the same and the energy of the conference is amazing.

Another conference I want to make sure you also know about is the Lead her Summit. It's Leadher Summit.com and if you actually use code Bonnie B O N N I E you will get, I think it's $300 off. And again, this is also a referral link. This is a conference for women. You do not have to be a woman physician to attend it. It's just think it's going to be a conference where you're going to meet lots of women doing amazing things.

We're talking entrepreneurs, CEOs, founders of big companies, pharmaceuticals. And it's really there for you to see what's possible out there and to hang out with like minded women. Also of note for Peter Kim's conference, you also do not need to be a physician. The vast majority of attendees are physicians, but you do not have to be. But it's definitely geared towards higher income men and women. Okay, here is my interview with Austin Dean.

Austin, welcome to the show. It's so good to be here. I appreciate you, you having me on. Yeah, we've been, this has been on the books for a while now because we're both busy on summer plans etc, so it's like finally here and, and I'm so excited to share you with my listeners. So before we get started, why don't you go ahead and introduce yourself who you are and your company, et cetera.

Yeah. So I'm Austin Dean. I'm the CEO founder of Waystone Advisors. We are a comprehensive independent financial planning firm that we're based out of Redmond, Washington. Been building this for almost 14 years at this point with philosophically kind of an anti traditional financial planning approach with more of a financial independence. How do we create cash flow and financial flexibility and give you more control to be able to enjoy being financially flexible now and not just when you're 60, 65, which I'm sure we'll talk about more later.

That's resonated with a lot of our clients around the country to the point where we now have 15 employees. We have clients in nearly 40 states and it's been a wild ride of helping people really rethink how do we do money. Yeah. And so you and I met at Peter Kim's Conference. Was that the one last year? That was the one last year. We'll be back there again.

Oh, yeah. So I'll, you know, at the time of this recording, I'll be seeing you in about a month. Yeah. So I am not anti financial advisor. I know that a lot of financial educators, I don't know what you call us, I don't think they're necessarily anti. But you know, it's. I think in the physician world it's kind of gotten a bit of a. I don't even want to say bad rap, but kind of like, oh well, you can just do it yourself.

Which I think is kind of hysterical as a key point just because we don't like it when patients do that. You know, it's like, well, we're the expert, not ChatGPT or Google and of course one should be financially educated. But I think they kind of miss the. What's the saying? Forest for the trees. Is that the saying? Well, anyway, so, and then, so from my point of view when it comes to.

So I did work with a financial advisor and again, I don't have anything against them. I've just found that they were very. A lot of them are kind of. And cookie cutter isn't even the word, but they, it seems like most financial advisors, and you and I will talk about this more and dissect it more, they're kind of like using what I call the outdated paradigm of work for 50 years, maybe the same job, and you put money away in the stock market in your 401k, maybe a Roth IRA, and then you'll have enough when you're 65.

And they do these compound interest calculators, blah, blah, blah, and that is blah, blah. And that is one way to do it. Right. But when I met you and we started having discussions, I was absolutely thrilled to know that our financial philosophies matched and really excited to meet to learn more about you. Because when people ask me for a recommendation, like there are a few that I do recommend in terms of like, I believe they're honest, they have integrity.

I don't know if they're worth what they charge in terms of after they fully get you. I think getting set up with someone get make, you know, getting you organized, especially as a cup if you're, you know, married or have a significant other that is worth its weight in gold. I've always just questioned like ongoingly, does it make sense to, to pay that fee for. I don't know, it just doesn't seem like they were doing that much.

Again, I'm not speaking for every financial advisor out there, but let's talk about what your philosophy is, because that's kind of what I wanted us to talk about. And I do mention, you know, I bring up your, your firm to other people who, when they say they want someone, because I have just found that the two financial advisors that I've, or maybe three that I've interacted with, like it's just stock markets, they don't really know anything about real estate.

They think everything else is like bad or risky. So anyway, we, I know you and I could talk hours. We're going to try to keep this to 30, 40 minutes tops for our listeners, but you and I could definitely talk about this for hours. So let's just start with that. How did you. Well, let's talk about what the philosophy is so people know what we're talking about and then we could talk about how you came to that and how that evolved into this company.

Absolutely. And I want to step in and say I have a lot of compassion for the doctors and professionals that have kind of shied away from the traditional financial advisory model. My experience, I mean particularly doctors or even tech high income earners oftentimes are, I mean probably doctors, even more targeted by financial advisors. But to, to put a little context before we talk philosophy, most financial advisors that I put in the position of being more traditional planning tend to be advisors that are, are more aligned with, hey, let's take your money, you know, in the stock market, let's diversify there.

And the entire plan is putting your money in retirement accounts, investment accounts, maybe we'll sell you some insurance policies. But really the goal is, hey, how can we have enough money in your retirement accounts in the market so that when you're 60, 65, we can start pulling from that and you can be financially free then, right? Philosophically. And to share a little bit more of our story is when I got into the industry, I was early 20s, wanted to create some credibility.

So I got a handful of designations. I have four, one of which is very recognizable. I'm a certified financial planner. I'm also a retirement income certified professional. And through that process of really diving into what is the traditional approach, I realized that so much of the common wisdom, the common teaching of let's maximum your retirement accounts, defer taxes, lock that money away. I didn't want to do, I didn't want to have my money in places that I couldn't actually touch without taxes or penalties until I was 60 or older.

So Me being me. That put me in a position of wanting to dive into. What are the different ways? What do the most wealthy do? I joke with our clients sometimes that the most wealthy don't get that way. By maximum their 401 and making coffee at home. Yeah, they do different things. They go out and they, they, they build businesses, they buy businesses, they acquire real estate and alternatives.

They become the bank. They invest in assets that are growing but still flexible, that they have more control over and over time. I built a philosophy around that where as a team, and this is, I think one of the more powerful things about our approach is it's Phil it's philosophy built. It's not, you know, one person doing magic wizard finance built. It's all of our team. When we interact with people, we figure out, hey, first off, what's your goals?

And then how do we prioritize helping you create more flexibility, more control, more leverageability of your money. And by leverage I mean not just debt, but just how do we make your money do more than one thing at the same time? And ideally a lot of our clients that's introducing the ideas of how do we use lines of credit strategically, how do we incorporate things like real estate and private lending and other, other, other tools that can be both a good diversifier but cash flow as well.

And a lot of people to start feeling financially flexible, I mean, as early as, you know, within a couple of years instead of having to wait a long time to feel the financial independence that they want to be able to have. I love that term financial flexibility because I think, I don't know, I don't know about you, Austin, but sometimes I feel like the term financial independence and freedom is like just thrown around a lot.

You know, I think yes, and financial flexibility is probably what most of us want in the, you know, in our prime working years, you know, because we're not looking to. Well, at least the people I know, they're not looking to just sit around and do nothing. I don't think doctors would ever be able to do that anyway. Sit around, do nothing. But we want financial flexibility. We want, we want to know that there are other ways that our money is coming besides our W2, you know, paycheck.

Okay. So if I can, if I can share, I mean the financial flexibility. Sometimes we'll even talk to clients about what we characterize as work optionality. So working with so many, so many doctors and kind of high income busy professionals is we found that oftentimes they'll come to us and they're feeling some version of burnt out without seeing an end of. Like, do we really have to wait another 20 years to be able to slow down and get off of this train?

But from a work optionality perspective, if we can create the financial flexibility, the cash flow assets that aren't locked up so that somebody can say, you know what, I'm now doing my job because I want to, not because I have to. I found particularly with doctors who oftentimes get into medicine because they are passionate about it, they think it matters. They end up actually wanting to stay in their job and enjoy it because they no longer feel trapped in it.

Which is a big deal. Yes, 100%. Okay. So I think people are already sort of understanding that we're not just going to talk about putting money away, you know, and then that's, that's how you, how you do it. So I'm trying to think how, or rather why do you think so many financial advisors, why do they pretty much only focus on the stock market? Yeah, I think it's a combination of training.

The industry trains people that this is how you save money, this is how you build wealth. The industry as, as well like regulators, the sec, you know, finra, those kinds of government entities also they tend to feel more comfortable with something more basic, something more retirement plan market centric. So it's, you have to be willing to get more creative and enter into a space that is a little more, I mean, in some cases gray, to be able to incorporate lines of credit and alternative investments like real estate and other things in that vein.

It also requires a lot more education. I think the average person, whether or not it's true, they have a general familiarity and they feel comfortable with, yeah, the stock market, I understand how that works. Everybody's doing it. I should put money there. But a lot of people aren't familiar with other types of assets and how those work and what are those risks. So for us, we found that we've had to just have a much more robust educational experience for our clients so that they have a better understanding of how do these pieces all work together and how could these, how could these actually support my goals.

Yeah. So. And going along the lines of, you know, the vast majority of people do know about the stock market, you know, have a 401k etc. It is kind of ironic how people think it's safer than alternative investments because that's kind of what a lot of us are. Well, a lot of my clients, I see, I see that they, the stock market feels safer. Yeah. But they can't really explain why I think it feels safer because everybody's doing it.

Right. It's kind of that confirmation bias. Yeah, yeah. I do think also that in the stock market, like, if somebody's doing it in a way to be more safe, like it's possible to, you know, put money into index funds or mutual funds or those kinds of things, be diversified and spread out your risk. Like, I think that's one of the big benefits of the stock market is that it allows people to have fractional ownership in businesses.

And as I mentioned earlier, the most wealthy, they, they build wealth by buying and building businesses and becoming the bank. The stock market is a way for the average person to have some exposure to the upside of successful businesses. Right. Yeah. And if you're investing in the stock market properly, you can have thousands of businesses. So if one of them goes out of business or even several of them, you.

You're not worried about losing all of your money. So from that perspective that, you know, if we're defining risk as not losing all your money, that is, that's a way. But on the flip side, as I think you're alluding to, when you put money in the market, you really give up a lot of control because you don't know what's going to happen. You don't know when there's going to be a new tariff that comes out or interest rates are going to spike or the inflation reading is going to.

Going to be different than people expected. And that can create a roller coaster ride in the stock market. The. Whereas something like, you know, like a private lending or even, I mean. Right. Kind of insurance policy or even certain versions of real estate, those come with a different risk profile. But also if done in certain ways, you can actually have more control and more flexibility than you might have with just having money in the market by itself.

Yeah. And then one thing I like to say, and tell me if you, if you agree or your thoughts on this is also the stock market. You know, sometimes people's emotions affect it too. Like collectively when there's a panic that's not based on, I don't know, a mortgage rate going up, or you could probably give a better example, but I think. You know what I mean, right? Yeah, yeah.

I mean, even look at like meme stocks. Right. So it's having done a lot of traditional planning and having a variety of designations, but also having done this for quite a while and integrated alternatives. I tend to say with the stock market in general, there's a lot of interesting, even like Nobel Prize winning research that says that the stock market in general is efficient. Right. But also we know that it's not always efficient based off the ups and downs and the emotions.

You know, things like the meme stocks and so well talked about the clients is that when we put money in the market, we understand that in general it's efficient, it's not easy to gamble and predict. But also we understand that sometimes there are inefficiencies because it turns out inefficient people interact with the stock market. Right. So we want to be aware of what's the right fit for the, for the stock market in a financial plan.

I tend to think of the stock market as being something where we want to be able to put our money in there, have it diversified in ways that we expect to have long term appreciation and then allow it to be a long term asset, not something that we're trying to pull money in and out of and constantly change. Yeah. It's funny, I have a family member who does not believe in funds and only buys individual stocks.

He's actually done quite well for himself. But, you know. Yeah, I mean, I, I absolutely know clients who have done that and I think that can be true. Something to be aware of is particularly if we're focusing on financial independence, if somebody's managing their own stocks and kind of buying and trading and doing those kinds of things, that can accidentally become a version of a job. So depending on what somebody's financial independence goals look like, there are I think, more passive ways to benefit from the market.

But I also, I mean, the more wealthy people are, the more money people have in the stock market, it becomes actually more advantageous in general, whether it's doing it on your own or having money managers to actually start doing individual stocks and bonds because that leans into when you actually own that stock or own that bond, you have more control over your portfolio of the buying and selling, Whereas in your ETFs and mutual funds you're commingling your money with other people's money.

So the end result isn't always fully in your control. Yeah. Okay, so we're definitely going to talk more about sort of how you and your firm sort of advise clients using not just the stock market basically, but a common question people ask, or rather the word that people always get confused by is the word fiduciary. So first let's define that and why people care so much about it.

Yeah, yeah. Fiduciary is absolutely. It's a word that I still think it's Just very funny sounding. But from a legal term, fiduciary means that you have to have the best long term interest of your clients. So the reason why that's important is there are for people who are licensed differently or don't work or own an RIA like we do a registered investment advisory firm, there's a lower version of client care called the best interest, which instead of what fiduciary is, is the long term best interest of a client.

The best interest one is in that moment, did it seem like this could make sense? Right. So somebody who's in a position of saying, you know what, you know, today, selling that person that thing that seemed okay, as you can imagine, that's a much lower barrier to suitability than fiduciary. And we take that really seriously for us, you know, before making recommend to people, we really want to know their, like help them define their goals, understand the resources, know their full picture.

So that when we're giving advice, whether that's, whether that's about the market or alternatives or you know, layering an insurance or you know, legacy planning, all of the above, we want to be able to say we know enough about your situation to know your risk tolerance, your goals, to say that, yes, we think this makes sense, not just now, but long term for where you're trying to go.

Yeah, so this is where it always tripped me up. I'm like, but anyone can call themselves a fiduciary technically, right? I mean, I mean if, I mean somebody in theory could be, could get in trouble if they call themselves a fiduciary and they aren't. So there are only a few ways to really be a fiduciary. So one, if you're part of an ria, like I said, the registered investment advisory firm, any advisor that's a part of an RA has to legally act as a fiduciary.

Additionally, anyone with a certified financial planner designation, also the c, you know that CFP requires CFP holders to also act as fiduciaries. So for, you know, for, for me, you know, I'm a double fiduciary in that sense, if you will. And all of our advisors are also fiduciaries because they're part of our independent registered investment advisory firm. Yeah, but would, so does this mean that we, someone could potentially interview a financial advisor and they're not like they'll, would they actually say I'm not a fiduciary?

Like isn't that basically saying like, don't hire me? I mean, potentially. I think it depends on what people want. Like if you're working with, you know, the 1, 800 number at Fidelity or Schwab or something like that, or even certain advisors that are, you know, aren't part of an ra, part of a, you know, a broker deal or something like that, The. It's possible for that person to not be a fiduciary.

The I, I do think that that is one of the, the very basic things that, you know, someone should at least be a fiduciary for you to want to work with them. Now, for us, like, we have a much higher standard when we educate our clients. We say, ideally, when you're working with someone, whether it's us or someone else, you, they, they should be somebody that you one, you, you trust them.

So ideally they're connected to you from a source. Whether, you know, that's part this podcast, whether it's a friend, a community you're part of, you want them to also be someone who is knowledgeable and someone who has, has the resources to actually act on, on, on that knowledge. So just as an example, if I'm the nicest person, you know, I'm super smart, but I'm working at a bank, I'm probably not going to be able to do the full scope of comprehensive planning that somebody who wants to do alternatives and be financially independent would necessarily need.

Right. The fourth, the bonus one, and this is where I think what we do is pretty unique, is ideally, you want the advisors you're working with to either be doing or have experience. People do the thing that you want to do. Right. So that, where the alternatives come in, that's where the alternatives come in. So it's, We've, I mean, we've, at this point we have, we have clients, even employees, who have experienced financial independence.

And you know, we have a track record of helping people actually do the things that we're doing. I personally, as part of our due diligence process, whenever we add a new asset or a new resource, I'll try it out first whenever possible. Now that's not necessarily going to be possible as we keep getting even bigger, but we try those investments. You want to negotiate special deals for our clients, even using lines of credit and other things, trying to create better options and better opportunities for our clients to do those so that we're not just an advisor telling people to do things, but we actually know what are the pitfalls and what's the best practices for actually implementing these financial strategies that are not necessarily common.

Yeah. And actually have some experience to boot. So you mentioned, you know, if you work with someone from a bank, I get like, for example, I know with Chase, if you have, if you become a private client, they have some criteria, I forget, like 100k, maybe cash with them or blah, blah, blah. They'll give you an advisor. And I know Merrill lynch does that. Some other. So are you saying those advisors are not fiduciaries?

Are they even CFPs? I don't even know what they are because I've never worked with one. I mean, most, most advisors aren't CFPs. And to be clear, like, some of the best advisors I know around the country are people who got into financial advising in their, you know, 40s because they wanted a job change, were super smart, and had a network, so they didn't need to get a designation.

Right. So I'd say designations you want to take, as somebody who has four designations, you want to take those with a grain of salt a little bit because they are valuable, they show a dedication to learning, but they don't. They aren't by themselves necessarily the indicator of expertise. Kind of like board certification. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, to your point. Yeah. When you're working at Chase or Bank of America, they're going to send you to Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, you know, those different places, those advisors aren't necessarily fiduciaries or, you know, certainly not, you know, necessarily CFPs.

I say somebody who wants a more traditional approach of just diversify my money in the market. That could work. But those are, you know, those are wirehouses. There are more. Those are what I would characterize as traditional financial plans. So they're not going to expose you to the kinds of alternative assets or creative strategies for being financially independent faster that we would typically do to our clients. At least in our, in our experience, they would.

Wouldn't. And certainly from knowing advisors that have worked in those types of places that are, you know, large, they act more as employees. They don't have the flexibility to be as independent in terms of finding resources for the clients they're supporting. Yeah, no, that makes sense. They're. It's like they work for Maryland, so they kind of want you to invest with, they plan and they use the. And they implement and.

Or sell the resources. The. Merrill lynch says this is what we're doing. Yeah, yeah. Okay. I mean, that. That kind of makes sense. Okay, so let's talk about what your investing philosophy is. We've, we've kind of like, you know, talked about it. Exact, you know, talked about it. But let's Sort of dive a bit more into why are you. Why are you someone who's passionate about alternative investments?

Why not just do the stock market compound? Interesting. Yeah, that's a great question. As far as the passion is, I've seen it work. One, I've seen it work in my own plan. I had the benefit a few years ago of hitting a point where we had enough passive income, and if I wanted to, I could have sold the business and sailed off in the sunset and had 500 to a million dollars a year passive income.

And I'd say that that for me was a really powerful moment of saying, okay, like, now I have work optionality. I can choose to continue to do this because it matters, because I enjoy it, because I want to, not because I need to. Which was huge. And over the past 14 years, particularly as we've built and gotten more independent, added more resources, and been able to really implement our philosophy for clients, we've seen people actually experience.

Experience financial independence or in a lot of ways, we have clients who even starting to see a path towards things feeling different or having some additional cash flow that can radically change how they're feeling and how much they enjoy the job and how they even how they interact with their family because they're less stressed. Yeah. So I think that creating. Helping people create financial flexibility, I think it has the potential to change not just them, but change how they interact with their families, their communities.

When working with doctors, having seen this so many times, the doctors that feel financially flexible feel like they enjoy their jobs more, are going to interact better with their patients, they're going to take more time, diagnose better. In theory, I think even helping the doctor community, as an example, feel more financially flexible, I think has a ripple effect much further than just helping doctors. Yeah. Just helping them have more non.

Non. W2 income. So that naturally leads into. Okay, so if you want financial flexibility sooner than 65 or 70, then would you say that if that's what someone wants and they have, let's just say, you know, W2 employed physician. Yeah. Does that mean they must consider alternative investments? How do you explain that to your clients? Yeah, I don't think they have to, but I do think they need to consider how much of what they're doing is really more traditional planning versus not.

So that goes to kind of reiterate our financial philosophy. And I'll dig into that question a little bit more, Bonnie. But I've really realized over the years that at the core, we want to help people create and build assets that Give them more flexibility and more control. And ideally that also means teaching them how to use lines of credit, have their money move in different places at the same time, but also creating cash flow.

What I found is in the traditional model, and this was, I mean a concern that I had, that I found resonates is, is particularly with doctors. Doctors work really hard, they put their heads down, they go through, through medical school residency, they get done. By that time, they're like, okay, I just need to pay off my student loans, I need to save. They start max funding their 401ks, doing all the things that are the traditional common wisdom to do.

And then by the time they look up, you know, from, from they realize, man, I have, you know, I have a million dollars or $500,000 saved in this account, but I'm, I'm still 20 years away, 10 years away from being able to actually access without, without penalties. And when we get to step and we could say, you know, maybe we should rethink where you put your money. Alternatives can certainly be a powerful tool.

But even putting money in places that like non retirement investment accounts or exploring certain types of life insurance policies or just other things that you can access that are still growing without having to wait for a certain time period or age and without penalties, that alone can start to create flexibility that people don't have when they follow a more traditional process. So you said a few things that I know people, their ears might have perked up because you've used the term line of credit a few times and then you mentioned insurance products because just like the word fiduciary.

Yeah, anything that sounds like whole life insurance, that's gotten a really bad rap in the physician community to the point where I just feel like it's just like automatic, they can't see, like automatic x, that's bad, etc. And so when people ask me for my opinion on it, like I, I'm very upfront, like I don't think it's bad and I explain why it's gotten a bad rap. I mean, you obviously can explain it a lot better than I can.

So actually I don't think I've ever had a conversation on what whole life insurance is, which we're not going to cover in our short time. But can you just briefly speak to just maybe one specific example of why someone would use a line of credit, which is, you know, debt. Because again, we're sort of all, we're all conditioned. Debt is bad. And then about whole life insurance, because I try to educate My clients, like wealthy people, have whole life insurance and they're not done with their money.

I mean, I'm speaking, you know. Yeah, yeah, these are, yeah, I mean, these are great points. And absolutely. The life insurance is something that is complicated. Like the. I like to joke with our clients, especially in the real estate space. You know, we all know a realtor who, you know, barely graduated from high school and then they're selling the same houses as that same realtor we know who does the multimillion dollar, manages the syndications, does the things, and they have that same license.

But one person who's selling real estate doesn't know what they're doing. Doesn't make real estate bad. In the same way that, you know, as us being independent, comprehensive planners, like, we use insurance as a very specific tool in a way that's different than, you know, not to pick on, you know, Northwestern Mutual, but some kid in college who had an internship and was told to sell things he didn't understand to his family.

Right. The. To maybe put in a different context, I'd say, and I'll explain how this fits in with lines of credit and leverage in those pieces. But life insurance, you know, going back, you know, 150 years has it started out as a tool for both protecting communities, but also the design was for wealthy people and sophisticated investors to be able to grow and pass money on, tax efficiently.

Logically, anything that is designed for wealthy and sophisticated people have multiple levers that you can pull and adjust that if you don't know what you're doing, you can create something really bad. And if you know what you're doing, you can create something really valuable. So I'd say the majority of the life insurance policies me and my team review that people already have usually are not designed properly. But on the flip side, a lot of our clients, they'll actually use life insurance as a tool to be able to say, hey, I have this tax free asset that's growing fully uncorrelated to the market that I can borrow.

Because if we design it right, it's incredibly low risk. We can borrow 95% if we want to, and we can use that to go invest in that short term rental property, create cash flow, get those tax benefits while still having life insurance protection, still having tax free growth. And now our money is doing multiple things at the same time. So that's where it really, it really depends on someone's situation and goals.

Which goes back to, I think a philosophy beast we haven't discussed is we never want to recommend Something that. Before we understand what are your goals and where are you trying to go? Because every financial tool has a. Has a purpose and a reason. But we. We. Until we know where do you want to go, we can't say, hey, this tool here makes sense because of these, you know, these things you said were important to you.

Yeah, no, it's such a good point, because people will tell me, like, do you think I should invest in real estate? And I always say, well, what are your. What are your goals? Because I think a lot. I'm sure you see this to a lot of people. My clients, you get kind of stuck into, well, I should be doing this. I should be doing that without stopping and be like, well, what are my goals?

And I actually have. I actually find. I mean, some of my clients know, a lot of them don't really know actually what their goals are. They just know that maybe they want to work less, that they want to be more. You know, I work with mainly physician moms, so a lot of it's, you know, I want to spend more time with my kids, you know, things like that, and be able to pay for college and, you know, retire comfortably.

And defining what that is, that is, is also important. And so I'm sure you see the same thing, right, all the time. I mean, I'd say probably, you know, nine. Nine out of 10 people that come to us don't really have defined financial goals. They, to your point, they have an idea of, I just want to not feel stuck in my job, I think. Right, yeah. And we have the opportunity to say, okay, great.

Well, let's define that. Let's see, like, how much money would we need? When you're no longer stuck in your job, what would that allow you to do? I mean, I still remember having a conversation a couple years ago with a. With a doctor, big surgeon, making a bunch of money, but working for a hospital. And he said to me, I make a ton of money, but I don't have the flexibility to walk my daughter to money, spend school in the mornings if I want to.

Right. And that just broke my heart. The. That's where I was. Like, this is the kind of thing where if we can create cash flow, if we can create more flexible assets, you know, someone can enjoy that, you know, being a surgeon, do those important things and say, you know what? But I'm not going to accept that shift because I don't need. I don't need to have all the money that you can give me.

Right. More negotiating power, basically. Exactly. More negotiating power. Because, because you have the control to be able to. I met some other clients similarly. They're, I mean, fantastic, fantastic couple. They're in a position of thinking about starting a family. And they were like, we've done the real estate thing, but we don't want to invest in more things that are going to create more of a job because real estate's great, but there's always some version of having to manage either the real estate or managers.

And they said with the resources we have here because, you know, we'd help them set up insurance policies and investment accounts and some lines of credit. Like how do we create an extra year, four to $5,000 a month so that we can be able to work a little bit less once kids come so that we can really enjoy that part of life and do that intentionally. And we were able to use some of the tools we'd set up for them, blend in some more cash flowing, centric alternatives.

And within three to four months they had that cash flow. And it's those kinds of stories that it's more often than people think that we could help make that kind of very real, tangible change within, you know, three to 12 months. Just people don't know what tools and what resources they have available to them to make those kinds of shifts. Yeah, yeah. I mean, a lot of it for sure is, is education.

And I think people are seeing, you know, I feel, I think, you know, myself, Peter, lady and Kanji, you know, we've done a great job sort of exposing people to just not just the stock market. And so I like that there is a greater awareness, there's still a lot of fear around real estate. And real estate obviously is a big term. It's not just one kind as, you know, passive, active, et cetera, et cetera.

So because people often ask me, you know, because I have a financial, I would say foundational financial literacy course and they ask me if they're going to learn how to invest in real estate. And so I have to explain that that is like literally there's volumes of information in that topic alone. There's no way I could teach, you know, one, even one specific way of doing it. I introduce it so they understand why it might be an asset to consider.

But just like anything, there's, there's a bit of a learning curve. And it sounds like you help your clients, you, you explain why, let's say investment A is in line with their goals, but you define, you make sure they have goals first before you recommend anything. I'm guessing. Correct? Correct. That's the first part of our process. When a client wants to work with us, we have initial discovery meeting where we'll say, hey, let's take 45 minutes, talk about our philosophy a little bit deeper, get know your goals, high level, help you define them, your resources, see if this is a good fit.

But if they actually from their transition into our, what we call our wealth design process, the first tip is saying, hey, we're really going to help you define your goals so that we have that, that marker so that every time we have a financial decision we're trying to make, we have a lens for using it. And that lens is your goals. Yeah. Which is a big deal. I also want to say it's a, I mean you mentioned you and Kenji, you know, Kenji, Lay and Peter and it's, I mean it really has been an honor like because of our unique philosophy to become, I mean me and our team really just be the trusted advisors for, for so many of the Dr.

Communities that are looking for a non traditional, a different way to, to do planning. Yeah, it's a. We, we take that really seriously because we really do think that that partnership. There's a lot of trust that's put in us. I mean when they're talking to you or even Kenji and Latey oftentimes like they've given me permission to, when we're meeting with clients or when our teams meet with clients to help them understand is, does real estate make sense for you?

Like is that, is that the risk you're looking for? Are you looking like is, is the end goal real estate or is the end goal cash flow and financial independence? Yeah, and sometimes those things are the same and sometimes they're different. Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, I'm just thinking of like sort of big takeaway points from this episode. I think one of them, and I, I say this all the time is like, it's just really important to know what you want, your, what your goals are and they can change.

So like, I don't, I think sometimes we get afraid of like, well, I don't want to set these in stone because my goals, in my experience with the types of clients I work with, they usually, they usually change sooner rather than later and they become bigger goals. When I say bigger, I don't, I mean bigger amounts of money, but not just because of that, but just because they really start to see what else is possible in terms of how to live their life and so that they dream bigger, I think is really probably the best way to say it.

But, and then having someone like you and just education that if you want that financial flexibility, you don't have to wait till you're 70, you know, there are ways to do that sooner and, you know, let's talk about how that can happen. I'm assuming that's kind of how it works with your, with your clients. Yeah, I think, I think for the right person, much sooner. I mean, with clients all over the country and having done this, we have hundreds of stories of people having their, you know, having their financial check trajectory change.

I mean, even as recently as, you know, two weeks ago, I had a review meeting with some clients that we were doctors, but they're in tech space. And I mean, for those who aren't aware, like, the tech space over the last couple years has been a very volatile, am I going to keep my job? Am I not type of space? We jump on that meeting and one of the members in that couple said, hey, because of the things that you've allowed us to do, I'm actually transitioning into financial independence now because we don't need the money, we don't need me to go back to work.

I'm ready to take a break from that roller coaster. And that's. That felt very, very fulfilling for me to say, yeah, like this, we, we've changed their trajectory where before it was 15 to 20 years and now it, you know, it took us two to three years to get them to feel like they could think about money in a different way. Yeah. Awesome. So these are going to be.

These might be slightly annoying questions because I know there's no one size fits all, so. And you can answer it how you want. Do you generally advise? Okay, well, first of all, are most of your clients, would you say in their early attending years or sort of mid career? Do you. Yeah, I tend to think that we can help anybody. So we, we made a conscious decision. So me, and I guess by extension my wife, even though she doesn't run in the business, help me run the business, made a conscious decision years ago as a firm to have what we characterize as relationship minimums, not money minimums.

Because we hit a point where I was like, hey, to be able to expand, we need to be willing to invest in hiring advisors, hiring staff, training so that we can help more people while I continue to do more CEO, build the business, find more resources, work, or we need to set minimums and say, you know what, you have to have 1 million, 5 million, 10 million to work with us.

And our goal has always been to provide Non traditional advice to anybody who understands that this is a partnership that's going to require, you know, learning new things, unlearning things you thought you knew. So with that long term relationship mindset, I'd say even somebody who's just coming out of, out of residency, getting a new job, we might not be able to do as radical things with them because their cash flow might be going towards paying student loans and trying to buy a home and those kinds of things.

But we can help them put the pieces in place so that they will be in a much better position. And for us, even if we're not necessarily making the same amount of money, we would if somebody came to us with several million dollars and you know, for you know, middle of their career. Because reviewing this as hopefully we're working with our clients for 10, 20, 30, 40 years.

Right. It's. We think that we can create a win win by helping people have changed the trajectory of what they're doing. Yeah. So I was asking that mainly because do you have an opinion on whether new attending should pay off their loans rapidly? What I mean by rapidly I mean, you know, paying them off within three to five years versus whatever the default 10, 20 year plan. I'm just curious.

I don't think I've ever asked you this question. No, this is a great, this is a great question. And to your point, you know, I got to add that obvious cat. Everybody's situation is different. In general, I'd say it depends on the interest rates and the guys cash flow concerns. But I would largely say if the interest rates are low and you know, low enough, you know, sub 7, 8% that I'd say it often makes sense to not to start building other assets first.

I mean at this point in time this is, you know, I didn't have nearly as many student loans as somebody who went, you know, through the full spectrum of, of becoming a doctor. But I, I still have student loans that I intentionally don't pay down because they're low enough interest and I can use my money better in other places. Yeah, so that's kind of my philosophy too. So why do you think a lot?

There's a lot of people who think you should pay them off quickly. Yeah. I think that because financial planning isn't just about math, it's about emotions. Right? Yes. Which is why the goals as the lens is so important because there are absolutely times where we're talking with a client and saying hey, the math says you should do this but not paying off that loan or, or not Making that a change that we know is not actually mathematically as.

As valuable. That thing is keeping you up at night. And that is a non mathematical but real concern. So being able to work with somebody to say, you know what, maybe we give up. What is the optimal way to build in exchange for giving you. Allowing you to sleep better at night, giving you some peace of mind. Yeah. I have a few clients who worked a bunch of extra shifts to pay off their loans, thinking they would feel better, only to find that they're still working those extra shifts afterwards.

So. Because there's, there's a, you know, there's a lot of people out there who think that once they pay it off and, you know, get that burden off, that they'll feel better and it'll be easier financially. But they haven't built assets, so they're. They still have to work. Yeah, you know, I mean, that's exactly it. Bonnie. What I was going to say is, is when you pay off your student loans, but if you haven't actually created any wealth along, along the lines, you're still technically trapped in your job.

You maybe have fewer expenses, but you don't have the ability to slow down if you don't have other things that are creating that financial flexibility. Whether that's cash flow. Exactly. Yeah. Whether that's just non retirement account assets that give you the option to be more flexible. Yeah. So. Yeah. Because there's a term I'm sure you've heard, live like a resident for five years to pay off your student loans.

And so I kind of like to flip it. Or you could live like a resident to build assets. Can you imagine, like if you did five years of that, you just be in a completely different position in five years versus someone who paid off their loans only. Yeah. Yeah. And it's not black or white. Right. It's not like you have to do one or the other. But I, I feel like when I was first starting out in this space, I don't know, five years ago, that was sort of like the standing philosophy of the time.

I don't know if that's changed in the other circles. I just. Because I'm not in them anymore. But yeah, that always. That's something I just like to tell people and they're just kind of like they never even thought of any other way. Yeah. I mean, the conversation that our team occasionally has in that situation, not as much anymore, but I remember whether it's student loans or even people who want to pay their mortgage off faster than they.

Oh, gosh, we'll often say, hey, like what if we, if we save money in places that aren't trapped so non retirement accounts, let that build. There's a decent chance that you'll be able to, if you get five years from now, you'll probably, if we do it the right way, hopefully have more money than you would have otherwise. And if at that time you're like, I still want to pay off my student loans or still want to pay off my mortgage, you could.

But nearly always our clients get to that point where like, I understand why you told me not to do that. Yeah, yeah, I know. I have a friend who paid off his mortgage. And anyway, that's a whole other story. Yeah. And I'm not saying that's like bad to do, but yeah, I'm pretty sure he only has money in the stock market too, so. And he's still working harder than ever.

So part of me is like, I should give him your number. He wants to talk. I mean, our team would love to help. It's my wife, you know, of course, has been hearing me talk about nontritional planning for 14 years. Right. So she'll occasionally be like, I talked to somebody who has their house fully paid off and she's like, if they did a cash flow refinance and they put it in some of those cash flowing assets, they could actually have a lot more money and leave a bigger legacy and do some other cool things.

And I was like, you've been listening to me, honey. Yeah. Yeah. So, okay, so my second, the second thing I want to talk about was, and this is also a little different than the norm is like what is with people and their fanatical goal of owning a house? Like what, it's in the culture, it's societal that like they should buy a house asap. And I just, my personal opinion is the landscape's different now for, for, for buying a home now that I live in Tampa hurricane country, like I have zero desire to buy.

And then the, the long term, Florida is like, oh, we've never seen a season like this. Last year being Helene, Hurricane Helene and Milton. And I was like, well, I don't think it's going to get better. So anyway, that, that sort of aside. Yeah. Yeah. What's your, what's your philosophy on a newer attending just out of residency and they want to buy? I mean you're not obviously anti owning a home, but like you can see how I think it can be problematic, especially now that doctors don't usually stay at their first job very Long.

Yeah, yeah. The. I mean, you're right. I mean I, I own my own home and I'd say the, the culture issue around owning, owning a home I think goes back to some of that same things of financial planning. Right. Is math and emotion. Historically, historically, owning a home has been one of the major indicators of long term wealth building. And two, there's also an emotional like a pride of being like, this is mine, I own this.

Right. The. But, but that's where if you, you know, if you're willing to look at things and be kind of what we characterize internally, it's like relentlessly curious. Like does that make sense? Which is a lot of how we created the non traditional approach we have is you find some of the things that you're alluding to of are there reasons to not. Right. Because it's a, it's possible to invest in real estate or in other assets without having it necessarily be your own home.

So if we use the lens of what's going to create the most flexibility and control for me and my family for someone's situation, particularly to your point, an attendee who's attending who might not stay in that job for long term and might change and move to a different place, building other assets that are more. Still building assets that are more flexible are going to allow those changes to happen without worrying about, man, do I have to sell my house first before I can move to that new job or other things.

So it's going to sound like we're beating a dead horse at this point, but it really comes down to somebody before they buy a home, before they make a big financial decision, knowing what are their goals and, and prioritizing, will this create the flexibility and control that I want to be able to have the future that I want for my family? Yeah, you know, it's becoming a buyer's market at least here in Tampa.

And it's, it's, it is very tempting because just, you know, having moved from northern New Jersey, very high cost of living area, although this is considered medium and the, the locals who have been here for a long time aren't happy because the Tampa, everything's just been going up and up here because so many people are moving here, which drives, you know, the price. And then it's like, well, what do I, what do I want in a house too?

Right? Because there's, you know, the, the bigger the house, the more, the more you have to do for upkeep. Right. So. But yeah, I can get something really nice for 600k. I probably could spend even less if I wanted to and still get what I, what I want. And so, and then it's like yeah, because I think right now buyers do have a bit of an upper hand.

You know, things are not moving fast right now. So. And back to your point about goals is like there's just a lot of balls of up in the air about like, well, we don't know where we're going to land with like you know, Jack's school for example, location. Because that, that's, that affects, that's you know, when you have a family that is a huge driving is a huge factor.

Where do you work? I can work, I can live anywhere. So it doesn't matter. Yeah. Where does the kid go to school? Right. And so but yeah, it's hard not I'm finding myself getting a little like sucked into oh but it's a good time to buy and I could negotiate and all that stuff. But then also I also have this fear of being trapped and to me owning a home feels like being trapped to me anyway.

So it certainly can be. I mean I remember I don't know, seven or eight years ago having a, having talked with one of the kind of the real estate specific mortgage lenders that we work with and we're both talking about, hey, like for someone especially in their early stage of career, if they, you know, if they don't have kids or they are having more nomadic lifestyle, investing in rentals or alternative investments can actually be a more effective way than owning a home because you're creating something that's building wealth whereas owning a home like there is a certain, you know, real estate goes up over time in most places.

Most of the time you have debt pay down, there's some value to that. But it's not explicitly an investment unless you know that you're going to sell it in the future or potentially try to rent it out. Yeah. And that's an. And you said earlier about emotions. Yeah. Owning a home is a, mainly an emotional purchase for most people. Yeah. Yep. So yeah, I'm sure you know, you know, lady and Kenji, they didn't own until relatively recently.

And I don't know if people knew that they were renting because they were busy building their real estate portfolio and their business and they only bought what a year or two ago in Puerto Rico. Yeah. I mean and that's a great example of them, you know, still taking advantage of real estate as a wealth building tool without it having to be their home. Yeah. Which once again is not good or bad.

Like, I own my own home. I have four kids. You know, we needed a bigger house. Actually. I work from work, work from home. This is my home. So I, It's a lot of value to that, but it's, it's. There isn't, to your point, a specific path that everybody should do this every time? Yeah. Okay. So is there anything we haven't said that you wanted to say or wanted people to know?

Yeah, the. There's always more to talk about. I mean, I think, you know, we, we alluded to a handful of different strategies, our ability to, to borrow. I appreciate you asking questions around. Hey, insurance pros and cons. The. I would say that anybody who wants to have a financial independence, non traditional approach is someone I would invite to say, hey, be willing to be open to being wrong or being open to things different than you thought they were.

A lot of how we've gotten to the point of being able to me and many of our clients be financially independent is by saying, hey, let's poke at that common wisdom and ask, is that correct? And if it's not, what could be different? And if somebody's willing to have that mindset, that's where I would lean towards whether it's us or someone else. Although I do think what we do is very unique in that space.

Someone who wants to have a non traditional approach to financial planning have the option to be financially flexible sooner. I would encourage people to really dive in, to find their goals, prioritize finding a really good team, having a mindset that's a shift of, hey, I'm willing to unlearn things that I thought I knew and learn new things, be curious. And in that kind of situation, I mean, certainly if someone wants to work with us, but even just having that kind of mindset, I think you could find that financial independence could be closer than you thought it was.

Yeah. Awesome. All right, so what's the best way for people to reach out to you and your company? Absolutely. The, the best way. There are a couple different ways. One, we do have an intake form on our website. So someone reaches out, that'll go to our team. Our team will follow up. You can always email our team directly at infoaystoneadvisors. We have our, what we call our client advocate team, who they, they monitor that inbox and they're fully in charge of making sure that whether it's current clients or new clients that they reach out and coordinate, making sure they're connected with the right advisor or right member of the team to help have those conversations and support their financial plan.

So I'd say the easiest way website or email us at [email protected] yeah, and that's your website, obviously. Waystoneadvisors.com and we'll have that in the the show notes as well. Okay. Well, I'm so glad we finally made this happen. I feel like we scheduled this like three months in advance or so. It was a while ago. Yeah, just finding time on our, on our schedules and also I was away for the summer, so.

All right, well, cool. I'm so excited for people to listen to this and I'll see you in a month. That sounds great. I'm looking forward to it. Thanks for having me. Bonnie hey there. Thanks so much for tuning in. If you loved what you heard, be sure to subscribe so you don't miss an episode. And if you're listening to this on Apple Podcasts, I'd love for you to leave a review.

Reviews tell Apple that this podcast is, well, awesome and it will help women find this podcast so they too can live a wealthy life. And finally, you can learn more about me and what I do at Wealthy mom md. See you next week. Disclosure Waystone Advisors, LLC is a registered investment advisor with the U.S. securities and Exchange Commission. Waystone Advisors provides investment advisory and related services for clients nationally.

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